On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
Circuit Breaker 22AIC
Started by ●September 24, 2023
Reply by ●September 24, 20232023-09-24
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:28:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.How long is a piece of string? -- Rick C. - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:57:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:> On 9/24/2023 2:56 PM, Don Y wrote: > > On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: > >> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the > >> time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit > >> breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC. > > > > You've not indicated where you are located. > > > > In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit. > > In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had > > 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit). > > > > Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit > > at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit. > It goes without saying that the fridge should always have a dedicated > (i.e., "single outlet") circuit.It goes without saying, because no one says it. A fridge is about 300W or around 3A when running. That's about the same as maybe 5 laptops depending on the laptop and what they are running at the time. The only individual heavy load is the microwave which ranges from 600W to 1,400W, depending on size. But we simply don't know enough. 10 laptops can use over 1,000W alone, if they are high end, running heavy programs. So, they should be ok with the fridge, but the microwave has to go on a separate circuit, or the fridge has to be turned off while the microwave is running. -- Rick C. + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > > On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC. > > You've not indicated where you are located. > > > > In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit. > > In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had > > 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit). > > > > Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit > > at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit. > > > > OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here. > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.What's the current draw of the fridge while running? While defrosting? They might be compatible on a 20A circuit. -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: >> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: >>> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem. >> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment >> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's >> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm >> or loss as a result of your actions). >> >> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed* >> (what ampacity circuit). >> >> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works". >> >> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there" >> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it >> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old >> wire on hand that predates your occupancy). >> >> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns. > > I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more of them being used concurrently. When people are "plagued" by nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices (that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort of behavior and tries to anticipate it). [Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit? Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners into ALL of them??] Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge (which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the "small appliance" counter circuits -- but "best practices" (i.e., anyone who isn't pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a 15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge). Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would "go off" whenever he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with the microwave's sudden use, would promptly take out the counter circuit. "Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit installed -- like every NEW home!" [I've heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that my stock response is: "Check to see if your refrigerator is on the same branch circuit" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen aren't keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that shiny new fridge!)] Ditto for a freezer, etc. But, people don't read the Code so don't understand what it tries to anticipate... ("Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on the counter circuit!")
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that. > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current. It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 6:32:24 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:> On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > >> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote: > >>> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem. > >> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment > >> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's > >> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm > >> or loss as a result of your actions). > >> > >> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed* > >> (what ampacity circuit). > >> > >> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works". > >> > >> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there" > >> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it > >> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old > >> wire on hand that predates your occupancy). > >> > >> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns. > > > > I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave. > The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances > precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more > of them being used concurrently. When people are "plagued" by > nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices > (that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort > of behavior and tries to anticipate it). > > [Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit? > Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners > into ALL of them??] > > Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge > (which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a > dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the "small > appliance" counter circuits -- but "best practices" (i.e., anyone > who isn't pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a > 15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application > could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge). > > Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would "go off" whenever > he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge > on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the > nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with > the microwave's sudden use, would promptly take out the counter > circuit. > > "Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit > installed -- like every NEW home!" > > [I've heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that > my stock response is: "Check to see if your refrigerator is on the > same branch circuit" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen > aren't keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come > out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that > shiny new fridge!)] > > Ditto for a freezer, etc. > > But, people don't read the Code so don't understand what it tries to > anticipate... ("Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on > the counter circuit!")None of that advice applies to the California Electric Code (CEC). All branch circuits into the kitchen are required to have AFCI protection without exception.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that. > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K > > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ > > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A. > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current. > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
Reply by ●September 25, 20232023-09-25
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit. > > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that. > > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K > > > > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/ > > > > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A. > > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current. > > > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient. > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.And the fridge alone never trips the AFCI? You can't relay the power through the microwave that way because it could potentially short cycle the relay load if it's in a mode other than continuous.
