On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:05:10 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > Against: > > > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > For: > > > > > > 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > That already exists. It's called a prepaid debit card. Duh! > Not when the charging station only allows their only RFID cards, which sometimes don't work. I have had problems with CP, EC and EG before, but they seldom reject credit card. > > > 2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > Who cares? It's a buck a day. Whatever. > My argument is that it would probably cost the same as maintaining their RFID readers. > > The alternative is putting cellular data connections in the EVs like Tesla does adding cost to every vehicle. I think that's going to cost more and there's no way around being tracked. > I don't really want to drive a car tracking me every second.Then you need a GPS spoofer.
Motion in support or reject EV charging chip reader?
Started by ●October 10, 2021
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:40:52 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:05:10 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > Against: > > > > > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > For: > > > > > > > > 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > That already exists. It's called a prepaid debit card. Duh! > > Not when the charging station only allows their only RFID cards, which sometimes don't work. I have had problems with CP, EC and EG before, but they seldom reject credit card. > > > > 2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > Who cares? It's a buck a day. Whatever. > > My argument is that it would probably cost the same as maintaining their RFID readers. > > > The alternative is putting cellular data connections in the EVs like Tesla does adding cost to every vehicle. I think that's going to cost more and there's no way around being tracked. > > I don't really want to drive a car tracking me every second. > Then you need a GPS spoofer.My car get GPS data, but doesn't send it to some database.
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:40:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > whats' the denominator, does it 50% to the cost or 0.1%? > DCFC costs around $50,000 to $80,000.Level 2 chargers are around $1,000 to install in a group. Fuel costs are about $6 for an 8 hour day. There are a lot more of these than level 3 chargers. -- Rick C. -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:37:22 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:28:19 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:05:10 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > Against: > > > > > > > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > > http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > > For: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > That already exists. It's called a prepaid debit card. Duh! > > > Not when the charging station only allows their only RFID cards, which sometimes don't work. I have had problems with CP, EC and EG before, but they seldom reject credit card. > > > > > 2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > Who cares? It's a buck a day. Whatever. > > > My argument is that it would probably cost the same as maintaining their RFID readers. > > Your argument to making EV charging simpler and more universal is for every charging company to have their own RFID card? Just have credit card readers which seem to commonly RFID these days and be done with it! Why make it complex? > You are not understanding the issue. I am in support of the Motion by CARB to mandate credit card reader starting 2022. Without the mandate, most free marketers simply have their own RFID readers for their own cards. > > Unless a government agency gets full of themselves and mandates some sort of common, EV specific card, the natural progression is to either a credit card based system or a Tesla like system where the car is the key card. Nothing else makes sense. > That's what the mandate is saying. We must have the option to pay with anonymous credit/debit cards. > > > > The alternative is putting cellular data connections in the EVs like Tesla does adding cost to every vehicle. I think that's going to cost more and there's no way around being tracked. > > > I don't really want to drive a car tracking me every second. > > Then don't drive. It's not a right, it's a privilege. Besides, if you use Gmaps or Waze you are tracked anyway. Then there are the micro chips you got when you were vaccinated... not to mention the satellites watching you. You don't really think Musk put all those sats in orbit without approval and massive funding from the CIA, FBI, TSA and the Ministry of Truth. > > > > They are watching all of us, but they are *really* watching YOU! > I know. The money gouging free marketers don't like me.According to you anyone who doesn't give it away is a money gouger. Charging is going to be just like gasoline in the end. You will pay the cost of providing electrons and they will make their money on the other stuff you buy. There's no need to mandate anything. The free market will let the popular chargers make money and the others will be bought up. Vote with your wallet. Don't ask the government to cast your vote for you. You may not like the result. -- Rick C. +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:57:54 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:40:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > whats' the denominator, does it 50% to the cost or 0.1%? > > DCFC costs around $50,000 to $80,000. > Level 2 chargers are around $1,000 to install in a group. Fuel costs are about $6 for an 8 hour day. There are a lot more of these than level 3 chargers.They are not mandating it for L2 yet, although i think they should.
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:00:41 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:>On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 2:55:03 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee >> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >Against: >> > >> >"Cost - $700 million in costs could Bslow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB�s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" >> > >> >http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html >> > >> >For: >> > >> >1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. >> > >> >2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > >> Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger King? > >Ev stations are very often unmanned. So far, not many BK are totally automated.Gas stations presumably have someone on site all the time (is that a legal requirement?) but I rarely see anyone. ATMs dole out money and are un-staffed. Parking meters and garages take credit cards. Credit cards seem to work everywhere. -- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:00:56 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:37:22 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:28:19 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:05:10 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > > Against: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > That already exists. It's called a prepaid debit card. Duh! > > > > Not when the charging station only allows their only RFID cards, which sometimes don't work. I have had problems with CP, EC and EG before, but they seldom reject credit card. > > > > > > 2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > Who cares? It's a buck a day. Whatever. > > > > My argument is that it would probably cost the same as maintaining their RFID readers. > > > Your argument to making EV charging simpler and more universal is for every charging company to have their own RFID card? Just have credit card readers which seem to commonly RFID these days and be done with it! Why make it complex? > > You are not understanding the issue. I am in support of the Motion by CARB to mandate credit card reader starting 2022. Without the mandate, most free marketers simply have their own RFID readers for their own cards. > > > Unless a government agency gets full of themselves and mandates some sort of common, EV specific card, the natural progression is to either a credit card based system or a Tesla like system where the car is the key card. Nothing else makes sense. > > That's what the mandate is saying. We must have the option to pay with anonymous credit/debit cards. > > > > > The alternative is putting cellular data connections in the EVs like Tesla does adding cost to every vehicle. I think that's going to cost more and there's no way around being tracked. > > > > I don't really want to drive a car tracking me every second. > > > Then don't drive. It's not a right, it's a privilege. Besides, if you use Gmaps or Waze you are tracked anyway. Then there are the micro chips you got when you were vaccinated... not to mention the satellites watching you. You don't really think Musk put all those sats in orbit without approval and massive funding from the CIA, FBI, TSA and the Ministry of Truth. > > > > > > They are watching all of us, but they are *really* watching YOU! > > I know. The money gouging free marketers don't like me. > According to you anyone who doesn't give it away is a money gouger. > > Charging is going to be just like gasoline in the end. You will pay the cost of providing electrons and they will make their money on the other stuff you buy. > > There's no need to mandate anything. The free market will let the popular chargers make money and the others will be bought up. Vote with your wallet. Don't ask the government to cast your vote for you. You may not like the result.Yes, the anonymous free CalTran chargers are winning the race, but there are still locations that are out of reach. The mandate is asking for another option, but nobody is stopping you from using their own private card/reader.
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:06:44 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:00:41 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 2:55:03 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: > >> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > >> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> >Against: > >> > > >> >"Cost - $700 million in costs could Bslow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > >> > > >> >http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > >> > > >> >For: > >> > > >> >1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > >> > > >> >2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > >> Why should ev chargers be any different from gas stations or Burger King? > > > >Ev stations are very often unmanned. So far, not many BK are totally automated. > Gas stations presumably have someone on site all the time (is that a > legal requirement?) but I rarely see anyone. > > ATMs dole out money and are un-staffed. > > Parking meters and garages take credit cards. > > Credit cards seem to work everywhere.Unfortunately, not true for many charging stations.
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 7:08:12 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:00:56 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:37:22 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:28:19 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 3:05:10 PM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > > > > > > > Against: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Cost - $700 million in costs could slow EV charger deployment across California. By CARB’s own calculation, an EMV chip reader mandate will add approximately $3,000 to the cost of a charging station over its lifetime - $371 for the hardware and $270/year in operations and maintenance (O&M) costs" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.evassociation.org/carb.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Allow simple and anonymous payment with pre-paid credit card, when drivers don't want charging company to track their routes. > > > > > > That already exists. It's called a prepaid debit card. Duh! > > > > > Not when the charging station only allows their only RFID cards, which sometimes don't work. I have had problems with CP, EC and EG before, but they seldom reject credit card. > > > > > > > 2. Contactless RFID is not so much more reliable than chip ID. $271/yr additional maintenance cost is questionable. > > > > > > Who cares? It's a buck a day. Whatever. > > > > > My argument is that it would probably cost the same as maintaining their RFID readers. > > > > Your argument to making EV charging simpler and more universal is for every charging company to have their own RFID card? Just have credit card readers which seem to commonly RFID these days and be done with it! Why make it complex? > > > You are not understanding the issue. I am in support of the Motion by CARB to mandate credit card reader starting 2022. Without the mandate, most free marketers simply have their own RFID readers for their own cards. > > > > Unless a government agency gets full of themselves and mandates some sort of common, EV specific card, the natural progression is to either a credit card based system or a Tesla like system where the car is the key card. Nothing else makes sense. > > > That's what the mandate is saying. We must have the option to pay with anonymous credit/debit cards. > > > > > > The alternative is putting cellular data connections in the EVs like Tesla does adding cost to every vehicle. I think that's going to cost more and there's no way around being tracked. > > > > > I don't really want to drive a car tracking me every second. > > > > Then don't drive. It's not a right, it's a privilege. Besides, if you use Gmaps or Waze you are tracked anyway. Then there are the micro chips you got when you were vaccinated... not to mention the satellites watching you. You don't really think Musk put all those sats in orbit without approval and massive funding from the CIA, FBI, TSA and the Ministry of Truth. > > > > > > > > They are watching all of us, but they are *really* watching YOU! > > > I know. The money gouging free marketers don't like me. > > According to you anyone who doesn't give it away is a money gouger. > > > > Charging is going to be just like gasoline in the end. You will pay the cost of providing electrons and they will make their money on the other stuff you buy. > > > > There's no need to mandate anything. The free market will let the popular chargers make money and the others will be bought up. Vote with your wallet. Don't ask the government to cast your vote for you. You may not like the result. > Yes, the anonymous free CalTran chargers are winning the race, but there are still locations that are out of reach. The mandate is asking for another option, but nobody is stopping you from using their own private card/reader.What are you talking about "another option"? The mandate is a mandate. If they use a credit card reader they won't use anything else! CalTran is only "winning" anything because it is outside the process of natural selection by the users voting. It is SUBSIDIZED and exists regardless of use or "profitability". You only like it because you like for others to pay for your driving. Good thing you live in California. I'm trying to think if there are credit card readers that are completely exposed. The gas pumps and parking garages card readers are all under cover. I've not seen any car chargers that are under cover. I guess they can do the RFID thing outdoors easily enough, but not all credit cards are RFID, especially the anonymous debit cards. -- Rick C. ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●October 10, 20212021-10-10
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 7:10:19 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:> On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 4:06:44 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: > > > > Credit cards seem to work everywhere. > Unfortunately, not true for many charging stations.To promote EVs what they really need to do is to support and educate regarding charging at home and at work. Maybe promote work located level 2 charging. Level 2 is how the vast majority of EV charging will be done. Most people who don't own EVs don't understand that. Larkin is a perfect example of that. The average daily charge needed by EVs is just 8 kWh. Even a level 1, 120VAC outlet can do that overnight. Level 3 charging is pushed by the EV companies to assuage fears of range anxiety on trips. That's important, but such trips for most EVs (ones that have more than 50 mile range) only need level 3 charging a very few times a year, but need regular level 2 or 1 charging. So that is the real charging issue for adoption by the widest range of users. We need to find ways of getting level 2 charging installed for apartments and town houses. California mandated solar panels on residential homes. So it would seem a similar matter to mandate EV charging facilities which cost much, much less. Level 2 charging at work would facilitate the full use of the daily solar generation peak that presently is shipped out of state in the worst case. Install a few level 2 chargers at work sites and solve two problems at once very inexpensively. Giving out free electrons to people like Ed Lee is not the way to promote EVs. -- Rick C. --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
