On 07/04/2021 13:18, Bill Sloman wrote:> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:17:55 PM UTC+10, Robert Latest > wrote: >> Bill Sloman wrote: >> >>> The US is at 27.1%, but lots of stuff that gets paid out of tax >>> revenue in Germany - like universal health care. >> >> No, that is paid for by (mandatory) health insurance in Germany, >> not tax revenue. > > Economists mostly class mandatory health insurance as a tax. > Right-wing politicians prefer not to, but mandatory payments look > very like a tax when you end up having to pay them. If you are on > social security, the government will pay them for you. > >As far as I understand it, the USA pays about as much (as a percentage of its GDP) of public funds towards health care as most European countries. And then people pay privately (directly or via insurance) much the same again.
OT Tax Rant
Started by ●April 6, 2021
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:16:25 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:>On 4/6/2021 8:21 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:49:58 -0700 (PDT), George Herold >> <ggherold@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 11:38:39 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> https://theweek.com/articles/975735/janet-yellens-proposal-revolutionize-corporate-taxation >>>> >>>> My counter-offer to Yellin is zero corporate tax rates. >>> IDK, 21% seems OK. I would like to get rid of the 'loop holes' or whatever that let Amazon and others pay ~zero federal tax. >> >> They do that by offshoring assets. Non-American companies do that >> automatically. >> >> Tax US companies enough, and they will relocate to Aruba, or go out of >> business. >> >> So don't tax them at all, and keep the jobs here. > >US Tax Law favored entities relocating to Puerto Rico. Many pharmaceutical >companies set up shop, there -- instead of their locations in New Jersey, >Michigan, etc. > >Their once strong position, there, has been eroded. Not by lower taxes >but by lower production costs -- in places like India, China, etc. > >Do you think we make cars in MX because the *taxes* are lower?Certainly. No FICA or unemployment taxes. Probably low property taxes and fees. And no unions. They can build engines cheap in Mexico, pay high prices for parts on the books, and transfer profits from high tax regions to low tax ones. Like Google does with IP and Ireland. A lot of VWs are built in Mexico for the same reasons.>Do you think we have boards built in China because the taxes >are lower?Because all costs are lower.>Or, the shipping costs are gummit subsidized? Is >it because US vendors are inept and can't make a decent board?I can buy an electronic gadget from China, with shipping, for less than I can buy the parts here.> >Solution: come up with a common rate of pay for all workers, right? >And, as we can't force other countries to bring their pay *up*, lets >just deflate US wages!Better yet, tax imports the same as domestic production. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc The best designs are necessarily accidental.
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:10:47 +0200, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:>On 07/04/2021 05:02, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:30:32 +0200, David Brown >> <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > >>> >>> Norway has approximately the same rate of corporate tax as the USA. >>> However, in Norway corporate tax makes up 12.5% of the GDP (I'm getting >>> figures from Wikipedia here), while in the USA it makes up 1.8%. Does >>> that mean companies in Norway are ten times as successful? Or that 90% >>> of companies in the USA cheat or dodge their taxes? >> >> Norway has enormous North Sea oil revenue. > >Really? I'm glad you are here to tell me that.And, as snipped, tax it at 78%. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc The best designs are necessarily accidental.
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:10:47 +0200, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:>On 07/04/2021 05:02, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:30:32 +0200, David Brown >> <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > >>> >>> Norway has approximately the same rate of corporate tax as the USA. >>> However, in Norway corporate tax makes up 12.5% of the GDP (I'm getting >>> figures from Wikipedia here), while in the USA it makes up 1.8%. Does >>> that mean companies in Norway are ten times as successful? Or that 90% >>> of companies in the USA cheat or dodge their taxes? >> >> Norway has enormous North Sea oil revenue. > >Really? I'm glad you are here to tell me that. > >> >> It's hard for a government-owned oil company to dodge taxes. Or maybe >> easy. >> > >Very few people or companies dodge taxes in Norway. Even the richest >people do a lot less of the "creative accountancy" than in most countries. > >The reason is that on the whole, people understand the benefit of it and >trust the government as being on the side of the people and the country.The Norway Sovereign Wealth fund is the largest in the world, at > $1 trillion, $200,000 USD equivalent per citizen. ESG investments. Wealth is generally better than debt in the long run. although defaulting on debt obligations sure might have attractions for some. -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:59:38 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:>On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 8:12:11 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote: >> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 4:22:10 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote: >> > On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:00:25 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >> > >> > >On 4/6/2021 12:54 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> > >> On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:36:46 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> >> > >>> On 2021/04/06 8:38 a.m., jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> https://theweek.com/articles/975735/janet-yellens-proposal-revolutionize-corporate-taxation >> > >>>> >> > >>>> My counter-offer to Yellin is zero corporate tax rates. >> > >>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> You want zero corporate taxes, then be willing to lose all legal >> > >>> corporate protections. You do realize that a lot of government is >> > >>> devoted to supporting the corporations, protecting them with copyrights, >> > >>> ensuring the legal fiction of a corporation having a 'person' status, >> > >>> trademark protection, import controls, clean up after companies go >> > >>> bankrupt and leave a toxic mess behind... >> > >>> >> > >>> Can't have your cake and all that! >> > >>> >> > >>> John :-#)# >> > >>> PS, my businesses are incorporated >> > >> >> > >> The greater good of the population should be the goal of government. >> > >> Companies create jobs and stuff, but don't consume for pleasure; >> > >> people do that. If we had no corp taxes but taxed people, we'd have >> > >> more industries and jobs here and *more* tax revenue. >> > > >> > >Consume for pleasure? No one consumes only for pleasure, consumption is >> > >the sine qua non of industrialized society, you must do so. Or you will die. >> > >> > People in pre-industrial societies die of starvation a lot more than >> > we do. So much food in developed countries is unprecedented in >> > history. Our biggest health problem is obesity. >> > >> > It takes communism to create famines. >> >> A singularly stupid claim. We had famines long before we had communism. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India >> >> highlights the fact that famines there happened when the monsoons didn't deliver as much rain as usual. >> >> Communist governments do have the tools to alleviate famines, if they can be bothered to use them, but the problem with communism is that it is totalitarian, and if you have a lunatic in charge, they won't bother to use them. You can have the same problem in a nominal democracy. Donald Trump knew about the tools that other nations used to minimise deaths from Covid-19, but wasn't interested enough to apply the kind of pressure that might have seen them used. >> >> US Covid-19 deaths are now at 1,715 per million. Thirteen - much smaller - countries have done worse - Gibraltar is at 2,791 deaths per million but New Jersey has got to 2,781 deaths per million, so Trump probably performed as poorly as he could have. >> >> Australia is at 35 Covid=19 deaths per million, and Taiwan is at 0.4. >> >> > Corporations don't eat much, so don't compete with people for food. >> >> But they have a nasty habit of shipping what food there is to the customers who will pay most for it, even if those customers are struggling with obesity, like much of the US population. >> >> -- >> SL0WMAN, Sydney > >Hey SL0WMAN, the "problem" with communism is that it doesn't work. Early colonial settlers, the Pilgrims, tried communism and literally starved: >https://www.heritage.org/markets-and-finance/commentary/pilgrims-beat-communism-free-market >The returned to free market competition and thrived.Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and the Kims killed a lot more.
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 9:42:02 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:14:50 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote: > > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:45:09 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 11:31:26 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote: > > > > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 5:26:28 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 11:38:39 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > https://theweek.com/articles/975735/janet-yellens-proposal-revolutionize-corporate-taxation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My counter-offer to Yellin is zero corporate tax rates. > > > > > > > > > > > > Germany has probably the highest tax rate to be found anywhere, and their business is booming. I like how they classify a business with over $1B sales annual as cottage industry. It's called mittelstand and comprises a big part of their economic output. The core feature is they actually make "stuff." There's something to be said for making stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.expatica.com/de/finance/taxes/corporate-tax-in-germany-108106/ > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio > > > > > > > > > > France is the actual leader at 46.2%, with Sweden close behind at 44%. Germany is a 37.5%. > > > > > > > > > > The US is at 27.1%, but lots of stuff that gets paid out of tax revenue in Germany - like universal health care - gets paid for out of non-tax extractions in the US. > > > > > > > > > > The main advantage of making "stuff" is that even the dumbest commentator can understand it. > > > > > > > > That would include the likes of Angela Merkel who used that description in so many words when asked to what does she attribute Germany's economic success. > > > > > She is a successful politician, but she mostly delivers her political rhetoric in German. What's you actual example of her actually saying that? > > > > She told that to that worthless Brit, Blair: > > > > "Tony Blair, the former prime minister of Britain, once asked German Chancellor Angela Merkel why her country’s economy was so resilient. Her response was at once playful, a bit chiding and very matter-of-fact: “Mr. Blair, we still make things.” > > > > Don't ask me for links, jackass. This will be the last one you get. > Since it reveals it to be a very old quote delivered to one of Britain's more worthless politicians, it rather confirms my opinion of the intellectual content of the message. One can understand how you can resent being shown up.You think her opinion has changed in the meantime? Not likely, the record only validates it.. It doesn't take any great genius to understand if you make a product that sells and is in demand, the economy will take care of itself.> > https://www.kornferry.com/insights/articles/75-germany-revs-its-export-engine > > > > dw.com contains a video report on it too. You look it up. > Why bother? > > Anyone who thinks Germany is just a matter of methodology is missing the point- too dumb to give consideration to. > I don't think I was suggesting that. One has to wonder what particular "methodology" you might have had in mind; Germany does take engineering seriously, which helps a lot, but it also takes equality of opportunity pretty seriously. The kind of people who took more vacuous kinds of ideology seriously got thinned out a lot between 1930 and 1945.I'm talking about this fool mindset, not going to happen: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/president-obama-wants-america-to-be-like-germany-what-does-that-really-mean/273318/> > -- > Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 7, 20212021-04-07
On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 1:14:56 AM UTC+10, David Brown wrote:> On 07/04/2021 13:18, Bill Sloman wrote: > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:17:55 PM UTC+10, Robert Latest > > wrote: > >> Bill Sloman wrote: > >> > >>> The US is at 27.1%, but lots of stuff that gets paid out of tax > >>> revenue in Germany - like universal health care. > >> > >> No, that is paid for by (mandatory) health insurance in Germany, > >> not tax revenue. > > > > Economists mostly class mandatory health insurance as a tax. > > Right-wing politicians prefer not to, but mandatory payments look > > very like a tax when you end up having to pay them. If you are on > > social security, the government will pay them for you. > > > As far as I understand it, the USA pays about as much (as a percentage > of its GDP) of public funds towards health care as most European > countries. And then people pay privately (directly or via insurance) > much the same again.US health care cost about half-again more per head than the most extravagant universal health care schemes., at least on the basis of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development numbers below. The WHO makes Switzerland a bit more extravagant. For the fully insured, it delivers the same kinds of outcomes. For the US population as a whole it's less impressive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 8, 20212021-04-08
On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 6:34:36 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 9:42:02 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote: > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:14:50 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:45:09 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 11:31:26 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote: > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 5:26:28 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 11:38:39 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > > https://theweek.com/articles/975735/janet-yellens-proposal-revolutionize-corporate-taxation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My counter-offer to Yellin is zero corporate tax rates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Germany has probably the highest tax rate to be found anywhere, and their business is booming. I like how they classify a business with over $1B sales annual as cottage industry. It's called mittelstand and comprises a big part of their economic output. The core feature is they actually make "stuff." There's something to be said for making stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.expatica.com/de/finance/taxes/corporate-tax-in-germany-108106/ > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio > > > > > > > > > > > > France is the actual leader at 46.2%, with Sweden close behind at 44%. Germany is a 37.5%. > > > > > > > > > > > > The US is at 27.1%, but lots of stuff that gets paid out of tax revenue in Germany - like universal health care - gets paid for out of non-tax extractions in the US. > > > > > > > > > > > > The main advantage of making "stuff" is that even the dumbest commentator can understand it. > > > > > > > > > > That would include the likes of Angela Merkel who used that description in so many words when asked to what does she attribute Germany's economic success. > > > > > > > She is a successful politician, but she mostly delivers her political rhetoric in German. What's you actual example of her actually saying that? > > > > > > She told that to that worthless Brit, Blair: > > > > > > "Tony Blair, the former prime minister of Britain, once asked German Chancellor Angela Merkel why her country’s economy was so resilient. Her response was at once playful, a bit chiding and very matter-of-fact: “Mr. Blair, we still make things.” > > > > > > Don't ask me for links, jackass. This will be the last one you get. > > > Since it reveals it to be a very old quote delivered to one of Britain's more worthless politicians, it rather confirms my opinion of the intellectual content of the message. One can understand how you can resent being shown up. > > You think her opinion has changed in the meantime? Not likely, the record only validates it.. It doesn't take any great genius to understand if you make a product that sells and is in demand, the economy will take care of itself.It seems to take more genius than you can command to understand that while making stuff is a necessary part of an economy, it isn't the only aspect of the economy that needs attention. As a line, it was an adequate put-down for Merkel to use on Blair. Angela Merkel is distinctly more intelligent than Blair and can work with rather more complex ideas about how an economy works. Germany's dualapprenticeship system seems to train a lot more people than other countries can manage.> > > https://www.kornferry.com/insights/articles/75-germany-revs-its-export-engine > > > > > > dw.com contains a video report on it too. You look it up. > > Why bother? > > > > Anyone who thinks Germany is just a matter of methodology is missing the point- too dumb to give consideration to. > > I don't think I was suggesting that. One has to wonder what particular "methodology" you might have had in mind; Germany does take engineering seriously, which helps a lot, but it also takes equality of opportunity pretty seriously. The kind of people who took more vacuous kinds of ideology seriously got thinned out a lot between 1930 and 1945. > > I'm talking about this fool mindset, not going to happen: > > https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/president-obama-wants-america-to-be-like-germany-what-does-that-really-mean/273318/The fool mindset here seems to be US exceptionalism. If some other country is doing better by paying more attention to - say - vocational training, there are no end of US experts who will tell you it couldn't possibly work in the US, and you shouldn't waste time by even trying. What they actually mean is that the government would need to raise taxes to pay for the extra effort, and the fat cats who would have to pay the taxes won't let it happen. The fat cats would make money in the long term, but other people would make even more, eroding the power of the fat cats, who are happy to have progressively more power within a progressively less powerful country. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 8, 20212021-04-08
Bill Sloman wrote:> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 7:17:55 PM UTC+10, Robert Latest wrote: >> Bill Sloman wrote: >> >> > The US is at 27.1%, but lots of stuff that gets paid out of tax revenue in >> > Germany - like universal health care. >> >> No, that is paid for by (mandatory) health insurance in Germany, not tax >> revenue. > > Economists mostly class mandatory health insurance as a tax. Right-wing > politicians prefer not to, but mandatory payments look very like a tax when > you end up having to pay them. If you are on social security, the government > will pay them for you.Interestingly, health insurance in Germany becomes voluntary above a certain yearly income threshold (about 60k€). I am above that threshold, as are all other engineers and managers in the large company I work for. I don't know anybody who doesn't have insurance. They're all rational people I guess. -- robert
Reply by ●April 8, 20212021-04-08
David Brown wrote:> Very few people or companies dodge taxes in Norway. Even the richest > people do a lot less of the "creative accountancy" than in most countries. > > The reason is that on the whole, people understand the benefit of it and > trust the government as being on the side of the people and the country.I don't recall where I heard it, but the upshot was that a survey found that people in high-tax countries are happier to pay their taxes than people in low-tax countries. The reason was that the satisfaction at seeing the things your money is spent on outweighs the pain of having to pay for them. I don't know if it's true, but it sure is plausible. -- robert
