On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:28:58 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:>On 18/09/2019 20:02, Rick C wrote: >> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:56:46 PM UTC-4, >> upsid...@downunder.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >>> >>> The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than >>> during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can >>> fall by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 >>> industry. >> >> You mean like in the US? When you say day/night, what is really >> important is seasonal variations on top of the daily cycle. Summer >> peak to fall/spring low is more than 2:1 in the US. That is clearly >> no t dominated by 24/7 industry since that would not show such a >> heavy seasonal variation. > >Presumably there is a lot of electric space heating/cooling then. > >In the UK most space heating is gas or oil in regions without mains gas >- and domestic aircon is rare. Never gets hot or humid enough to worry. > >UK stats are something like base load at night 20GW. >Weekday working hours 35GW, weekend working hours 30GW. > >The only time there is serious seasonal variation is if there is a very >cold winter when peak daytime can reach 50+GW (about the limit of the >entire UK generating capacity). Last winter was quite mild so even on >the coldest winter days the peak daytime seldom went above 40GW. > >https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ > >We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters >day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens >next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if >their entire generating capacity is needed domestically.If building more wind and solar results in reduction of fossil-fueled power capacity, expect occasional interesting events. Pity there are no good storage options.
OT: 1.8GW solar park nears completion
Started by ●September 18, 2019
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:28:58 +0100, Martin Brown > <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:>>We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters >>day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens >>next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if >>their entire generating capacity is needed domestically.> If building more wind and solar results in reduction of fossil-fueled > power capacity, expect occasional interesting events.> Pity there are no good storage options.All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come online. I don't know what's holding them up. The first LFTR went critical in 1965 and ran for four years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor Companies around the world are working on them, but it appears nothing is happening. Obama and Trump both promised to speed them up. I guess there is a huge investment in boiling water reactors that would disappear when LFTRs come online.
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:28:58 +0100, Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >>>We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters >>>day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens >>>next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if >>>their entire generating capacity is needed domestically. > >> If building more wind and solar results in reduction of fossil-fueled >> power capacity, expect occasional interesting events. > >> Pity there are no good storage options. > >All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come online. >I don't know what's holding them up.1. The public is afraid of radiation. 2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want sacrifice.
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:>>All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come >>online. I don't know what's holding them up.> 1. The public is afraid of radiation.Not so much radiation, but meltdowns - Three Mile, Chernobyl, Fukushima. Reactors that lose their cooling water tend to explode. Molten salt reactors cannot melt down. They are already molten. They cannot explode. There is no water in them.> 2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want > sacrifice.The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are constructed.
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On 18/09/19 20:15, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 19:48:32 +0100, Tom Gardner > <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >>>>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the >>>>>>>>> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, >>>>>>>>> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're >>>>>>>>> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle >>>>>>>>> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help >>>>>>>> them a lot. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. >>>>> >>>>> People need electricity at night too. >>>> >>>> Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at >>>> night. Energy usage declines sharply at night. >>> >>> The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than >>> during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall >>> by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry. > > You failed to quote the heading of the chapter you are quoting > >> Fluctuations in household electricity consumption > >> In the UK it is 4:1 ... >> >> • Peak demand for electricity is about four >> times greater than night-time demand >> • Electricity consumption increases rapidly >> in the morning as people wake up, shower >> and begin to use appliances >> • Many people are out during the day, which >> keeps consumption steady >> • Electricity consumption peaks in the >> evening when most people are at home >> cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing >> is at its height >> • Major national events, such as a >> Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops >> and increases in demand > > With that heading that chapter makes sense and might even be accurate. > > However, from production point of view, those figures are quite > irrelevant. More relevant is to include industry and infrastructure > consumptions, such as street lights.Annoyingly, that's correct :) My excuse is that I was being nagged to get out the house, and posted too quickly. That isn't a good excuse :(
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie > <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: > >> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... >>>>>> >>>>>> On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the >>>>>>> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, >>>>>>> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're >>>>>>> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle >>>>>>> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants >>>>>> >>>>>> The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help >>>>>> them a lot. >>>> >>>> If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. >>> >>> People need electricity at night too. >> >> Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at >> night. Energy usage declines sharply at night. > > The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than > during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall > by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.In the UK the demand over the past 24 hours varied from 23.211GW (1:55am) to 37.106GW (6:40pm), so the minimum was 37.5% down from the maximum. Source: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:50:31 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote: > >>>All these problems will vanish when thorium molten salt reactors come >>>online. I don't know what's holding them up. > >> 1. The public is afraid of radiation. > >Not so much radiation, but meltdowns - Three Mile, Chernobyl, Fukushima. >Reactors that lose their cooling water tend to explode. > >Molten salt reactors cannot melt down. They are already molten. They cannot >explode. There is no water in them. > >> 2. The greenies don't want more energy, clean or otherwise. They want >> sacrifice. > >The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are constructed.Worked in Germany.
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote: >>The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are >>constructed.> Worked in Germany.Germany has already decided to shut down their coal and nuclear plants and move to renewables. See: PREAMBLE Germany has seven nuclear power reactors in operation and is in the process of phasing out its nuclear power programme. A total of 23 nuclear power reactors are undergoing decommissioning and three nuclear power plants have already been fully dismantled. The remaining seven nuclear power reactors in operation will be permanently shut down in a phased approach by the end of 2022. This report provides information on the status and development of nuclear power programmes in Germany, including factors related to the effective planning, decision making and implementation of the nuclear power programme that together lead to safe and economical operation of nuclear power plants. The CNPP summarizes organizational and industrial aspects of nuclear power programmes and provides information about the relevant legislative, regulatory and international framework in Germany. 1. COUNTRY ENERGY OVERVIEW 1.1. ENERGY INFORMATION 1.1.1. Energy policy Energy policy is, within the Federal Government, the responsibility of the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy (Bundesministerium f�r Wirtschaft und Energie (BMWi)). The Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety (Bundesministerium f�r Umwelt, Naturschutz und nukleare Sicherheit (BMU)) is responsible for environmental policy within the Federal Government. The major aim of the German energy policy is an affordable, secure and environmentally friendly energy supply. This aim shall be reached through the ongoing energy transition, where it is planned to produce energy on a sustainable basis and to maintain one of the most energy efficient and environmentally compatible economies in the world. The energy transition includes the following steps: The last German nuclear power plant (NPP) will be taken off-grid by the end of 2022. A greater share of renewable energy shall be used � according to the energy concept, 60% of the energy supply and 80% of electricity should be generated by renewables by 2050. Germany shall become less dependent on oil and gas imports. In line with the Paris Agreement, the emissions of greenhouse gases, which are harmful to the environment, shall be reduced by 80% to 95% by 2050. Energy needs shall be reduced by more economical and efficient use. The restructuring of the energy supply shall be a driver of innovation for Germany as an industrial base in order to generate growth and create sustainable and secure jobs. To meet the challenges of the energy transition, the BMWi has launched a Ten Point Energy Agenda (see www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Dossier/energy- transition.html). 1.1.2. Estimated available energy Germany is one of the largest energy consumers in the world and is currently expanding generation capacities for primary energy from renewable sources as part of the implementation of its energy transition, and to comply with the obligations inherent in the Paris Climate Agreement signed in 2015. However, around 80% of its primary energy consumption still has to be provided by fossil fuels. Germany must import the majority of the energy resources it requires. The most significant source countries for fossil fuel imports to Germany are the Russian Federation, Norway and the Netherlands. Around 2% of crude oil production and 10% of natural gas production are derived from domestic production. Mining of hard coal was phased out in 2018. Of all the energy resources in Germany, lignite is the only non- renewable energy resource which is available in large, economically extractable amounts � Germany supplies its own needs, and is the world�s largest producer and consumer of this resource. The demand for natural uranium is covered almost entirely by imports. Since the closure of the Wismut facility in East Germany in 1990, there has been no mined production of natural uranium in Germany. An overview of the estimated available energy sources in Germany is given in Table 1. The remaining potential includes reserves (proven volumes of energy resources economically exploitable at today�s prices and using today�s technology) and resources (proven amounts of energy resources which cannot currently be exploited for technical and/or economic reasons, as well as unproven but geologically possible energy resources which may be exploitable in future). https://cnpp.iaea.org/countryprofiles/Germany/Germany.htm
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-4, Steve Wilson wrote:> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:06:41 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote: > >>The greenies have no control over when or where power plants are > >>constructed. > > > Worked in Germany. > > Germany has already decided to shut down their coal and nuclear plants and > move to renewables.Seems to me this is similar to when Kennedy said the US would put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. They knew it was possible, but didn't know exactly how to do it. They also knew there was considerable risk. One big advantage of renewables, other countries can't raise prices or cut them off. -- Rick C. -+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
