On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:17:21 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:27 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... > >> > > >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> > > >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion > >> >> > >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the > >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, > >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're > >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle > >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. > >> >> > >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants > >> > > >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help > >> > them a lot. The 1.8 GW of intermittent solar power, > >> > not so much. > >> > >> Actually, 14.4GW of gas-fired power. While mid-day > >> solar comes at a good time and does help to reduce > >> peak-power production needs, this story makes clear > >> just how much bigger grid-scale solar farms need > >> to be, to have a serious impact. > >> > >> A second calculation I did was, looking at Egypt's > >> per capita electrical use, about 1.623 MWh/year. > >> Oops, my wife and I consume about 10.5 MWh/yr, or > >> 6.5 times more. OK, 3.23 x more per capita.** Our > >> roof makes 11 MWh/yr, but it's sobering thought. > >> > >> ** Doesn't count consumption at work, or our share > >> of other shared consumptions. worlddata.info says > >> U.S. per capita = 11.93 MWh/yr, or 7.35 x higher. > >> Hey, we'd need to more than double our roof solar. > >I pay a few hundred dollars a year 'extra' on our electric bill > >to 'get' all our electric from the nearby wind mills. > >(I also burn ~1,000 gallons/year of oil, driving cars and heating the house.) > > Would you sign up to only get all your electricity from windmills?You mean when the wind mills aren't turning my house goes dark? If so, then of course not. GH
OT: 1.8GW solar park nears completion
Started by ●September 18, 2019
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie > <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... > >> > > >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> > > >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion > >> >> > >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the > >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, > >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're > >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle > >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. > >> >> > >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants > >> > > >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help > >> > them a lot. > > > >If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. > > People need electricity at night too.Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at night. Energy usage declines sharply at night.
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote:>On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >> >> >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: >> >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... >> >> > >> >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion >> >> >> >> >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the >> >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, >> >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're >> >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle >> >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. >> >> >> >> >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants >> >> > >> >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help >> >> > them a lot. >> > >> >If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. >> >> People need electricity at night too. > >Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at >night. Energy usage declines sharply at night.The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie > <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... > >> > > >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> > > >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion > >> >> > >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the > >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, > >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're > >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle > >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. > >> >> > >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants > >> > > >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help > >> > them a lot. > > > >If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. > > People need electricity at night too.I didn't realize it was always night in Egypt. -- Rick C. - Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:17:21 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:27 -0700 (PDT), George Herold > <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... > >> > > >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> > > >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion > >> >> > >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the > >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, > >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're > >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle > >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. > >> >> > >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants > >> > > >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help > >> > them a lot. The 1.8 GW of intermittent solar power, > >> > not so much. > >> > >> Actually, 14.4GW of gas-fired power. While mid-day > >> solar comes at a good time and does help to reduce > >> peak-power production needs, this story makes clear > >> just how much bigger grid-scale solar farms need > >> to be, to have a serious impact. > >> > >> A second calculation I did was, looking at Egypt's > >> per capita electrical use, about 1.623 MWh/year. > >> Oops, my wife and I consume about 10.5 MWh/yr, or > >> 6.5 times more. OK, 3.23 x more per capita.** Our > >> roof makes 11 MWh/yr, but it's sobering thought. > >> > >> ** Doesn't count consumption at work, or our share > >> of other shared consumptions. worlddata.info says > >> U.S. per capita = 11.93 MWh/yr, or 7.35 x higher. > >> Hey, we'd need to more than double our roof solar. > >I pay a few hundred dollars a year 'extra' on our electric bill > >to 'get' all our electric from the nearby wind mills. > >(I also burn ~1,000 gallons/year of oil, driving cars and heating the house.) > > Would you sign up to only get all your electricity from windmills?Would you sign up to pipe the exhaust from a gas fired plant into your home? Yes, that is a stupid question and so is yours. -- Rick C. + Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie > <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: > >> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... >>>>>> >>>>>> On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the >>>>>>> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, >>>>>>> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're >>>>>>> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle >>>>>>> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants >>>>>> >>>>>> The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help >>>>>> them a lot. >>>> >>>> If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. >>> >>> People need electricity at night too. >> >> Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at >> night. Energy usage declines sharply at night. > > The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than > during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall > by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.In the UK it is 4:1 ... • Peak demand for electricity is about four times greater than night-time demand • Electricity consumption increases rapidly in the morning as people wake up, shower and begin to use appliances • Many people are out during the day, which keeps consumption steady • Electricity consumption peaks in the evening when most people are at home cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing is at its height • Major national events, such as a Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops and increases in demand Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from BEIS (2016) Energy Consumption in the UK where BEIS is the UK "governments" Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:56:46 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie > <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie > >> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: > >> > >> >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... > >> >> > > >> >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the > >> >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, > >> >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're > >> >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle > >> >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. > >> >> >> > >> >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants > >> >> > > >> >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help > >> >> > them a lot. > >> > > >> >If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. > >> > >> People need electricity at night too. > > > >Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at > >night. Energy usage declines sharply at night. > > The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than > during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall > by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.You mean like in the US? When you say day/night, what is really important is seasonal variations on top of the daily cycle. Summer peak to fall/spring low is more than 2:1 in the US. That is clearly no t dominated by 24/7 industry since that would not show such a heavy seasonal variation. -- Rick C. -- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 19:48:32 +0100, Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:>On 18/09/19 17:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >> >>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >>>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the >>>>>>>> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, >>>>>>>> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're >>>>>>>> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle >>>>>>>> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help >>>>>>> them a lot. >>>>> >>>>> If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. >>>> >>>> People need electricity at night too. >>> >>> Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at >>> night. Energy usage declines sharply at night. >> >> The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than >> during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall >> by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry.You failed to quote the heading of the chapter you are quoting> Fluctuations in household electricity consumption>In the UK it is 4:1 ... > >� Peak demand for electricity is about four >times greater than night-time demand >� Electricity consumption increases rapidly >in the morning as people wake up, shower >and begin to use appliances >� Many people are out during the day, which >keeps consumption steady >� Electricity consumption peaks in the >evening when most people are at home >cooking, using lights, and when TV viewing >is at its height >� Major national events, such as a >Wimbledon final, can cause sharp drops >and increases in demandWith that heading that chapter makes sense and might even be accurate. However, from production point of view, those figures are quite irrelevant. More relevant is to include industry and infrastructure consumptions, such as street lights.> >Source: https://bbc.in/2UTHUC4 from >BEIS (2016) Energy Consumption in the UK >where BEIS is the UK "governments" Department >for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy > >
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On 18/09/2019 20:02, Rick C wrote:> On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:56:46 PM UTC-4, > upsid...@downunder.com wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >> >> The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than >> during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can >> fall by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 >> industry. > > You mean like in the US? When you say day/night, what is really > important is seasonal variations on top of the daily cycle. Summer > peak to fall/spring low is more than 2:1 in the US. That is clearly > no t dominated by 24/7 industry since that would not show such a > heavy seasonal variation.Presumably there is a lot of electric space heating/cooling then. In the UK most space heating is gas or oil in regions without mains gas - and domestic aircon is rare. Never gets hot or humid enough to worry. UK stats are something like base load at night 20GW. Weekday working hours 35GW, weekend working hours 30GW. The only time there is serious seasonal variation is if there is a very cold winter when peak daytime can reach 50+GW (about the limit of the entire UK generating capacity). Last winter was quite mild so even on the coldest winter days the peak daytime seldom went above 40GW. https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ We are only really in trouble if it is a blocking high calm cold winters day without wind and the same over most of Europe. When that happens next time there will be UK power cuts since France won't export to us if their entire generating capacity is needed domestically. -- Regards, Martin Brown
Reply by ●September 18, 20192019-09-18
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 12:02:47 -0700 (PDT), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:>On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:56:46 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >> >> >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 12:15:33 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie >> >> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:12:22 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote: >> >> >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 18 Sep 2019, Winfield Hill wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/egypts-massive-18gw-benban-solar-park-nears-completion >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Located in Egypt's "Western Desert", west of the >> >> >> >> Nile, but in the eastern Sahara. 1.8GW is a lot, >> >> >> >> amounting to 5% of Egypt's capacity, but they're >> >> >> >> also finishing three 4.8GW gas-fired combined-cycle >> >> >> >> plants (40% of capacity), to meet peak demands. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>https://press.siemens.com/global/en/feature/egypt-selects-siemens-operate-and-maintain-worlds-largest-combined-cycle-power-plants >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The almost 10 GW of new always-on gas plant will help >> >> >> > them a lot. >> >> > >> >> >If it says it's for peak, that implies that it's not always on. >> >> >> >> People need electricity at night too. >> > >> >Sure, but again that doesn't mean that it's running full capacity at >> >night. Energy usage declines sharply at night. >> >> The consumption is typically 10-30 % lower during the night than >> during the day depending on country and season. Apparently it can fall >> by 50 % in some countries, if there are very little 24/7 industry. > >You mean like in the US? When you say day/night, what is really important is seasonal variations on top of the daily cycle. Summer peak to fall/spring low is more than 2:1 in the US. That is clearly no t dominated by 24/7 industry since that would not show such a heavy seasonal variation.When discussing PV the relevant thing is the day/night difference _within_ a season. Wind also suffer from short day variations (days), so there must be other quickly dispatchable sources. The seasonal variations are easier to handle, start extra power plants (such as coal or even nuclear) at the beginning of the high consumption season (summer at low latitudes, winter at high latitudes) and let them run until end of high season. Regular scheduled maintenance can be done during low season.
