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OT: Lead Acid Float Charger

Started by Jim Thompson March 30, 2016
On 01.04.16 1:02, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:47:48 +0200, Sjouke Burry > <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote: > >> On 31.03.16 18:21, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:10:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:07:21 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >>>>> So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >>>>> I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >>>>> buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >>>>> >>>>> (*) Cost no object. >>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>> >>>> Well, I can tell you what NOT to purchase. These are all losers: >>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/dead-battery-chargers.html> >>>> Everyone of them either destroyed themselves playing float charger, >>>> killed the battery, or both. The carnage was both messy and >>>> expensive. Please note that only one of these was mine. The rest >>>> belonged to a mountain top radio site owner that was too cheap to do >>>> it right. Incidentally, there were two more chargers that were still >>>> working on another site, which were pre-emptively replaced before they >>>> blew up. >>>> >>>> So, what went wrong: >>>> >>>> 1. The chargers are not temperature compensated. Never mind the air >>>> or building temperature. It's the battery temperature that's >>>> important. With the battery sitting on a concrete slab, it's the >>>> temperature of the concrete, not the air or building. Either find a >>>> charger with a thermistor temp sensor, or put some insulation under >>>> the battery. >>>> >>>> 2. While some of the chargers claimed automatic charge control in 3 >>>> stages (bulk, absorption, float), none of them claimed that you could >>>> just leave the charger connected to the battery forever. The result >>>> was serious overcharging as the float charge did not switch off >>>> totally when fully charged. The original idea behind the float cycle >>>> was to bring the battery from 95% to 100% SoC. The battery would last >>>> longer if it just stayed at 95% charge (despite claims that full >>>> charge prevents the build up of sulfate crystals). >>>> >>>> 3. While all the chargers in the photo had some form of heat sinks on >>>> the diodes and regulators, none were large enough or sufficiently >>>> vented to be useful if the charger was expected to supply a >>>> substantial fraction of the power. This happened after power outages >>>> and heavy transmitter use. Get something with big ugly heat sinks and >>>> possibly a fan. >>>> >>>> 4. Fuse? Whazzat? One charger went nuts and produced an impressive >>>> hot battery acid fountain. Install a fusible link, fuse, circuit >>>> breaker, or relay disconnect. >>>> >>>> 5. There was no monitoring or telemetry. I didn't even know we had a >>>> problem until I arrived to do something else, and found the hot >>>> battery acid fountain. Meters, sensors, gauges, and data loggers are >>>> a good thing to have. >>>> >>>> I also maintained some generators on various mountain tops. >>>> Fortunately, I don't do that any more. The problems are similar to >>>> starting your pickup. The generators were all 24VDC, used two lead >>>> acid batteries in series, but were otherwise similar to the previously >>>> mentioned backup batteries. >>>> >>>> We used two types of float chargers. The generators use Deltran >>>> (except 24VDC): >>>> <http://www.batterytender.com/Chargers/Water-Resistant-Power-Tender-Plus-12V-5A.html> >>>> Most everything else uses marine chargers from Statpower/Xantrex: >>>> <http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/battery-chargers/truecharge.aspx> >>>> Actually, we bought a pile of Statpower TC10HW, but those are obsolete >>>> and no longer sold. >>>> >>>> Here's a lousy photo: >>>> <http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/slides/40A%20battery%20charger.html> >>>> of a Statpower 12V 40A version that runs this battery pile: >>>> <http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/slides/Batteries.html> >>>> However, that's probably overkill for what you need. Here's another >>>> lousy photo of a similar Xantrex charger. It's the yellow colored >>>> thing near the bottom of the rack: >>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/W6JWS-2m-repeater-repair-log/rack.jpg> >>>> Pretend you don't notice the inadequately thin wires connected to the >>>> big blue batteries in the background. (I didn't do that). >>>> >>>> What to buy? I dunno. Maybe go to a trailer supply house, or better >>>> yet, a marine electronics dealer, and see what they have to offer. If >>>> money is really no object, then get something by Xantrex in the 10A or >>>> 20A range. >>>> <http://www.westmarine.com/mounted-battery-chargers> >>>> This one looks good: >>>> <http://www.westmarine.com/buy/xantrex--truecharge2-battery-chargers--P009_271_009_501> >>>> Notice the optional remote battery temperature sensor. >>>> >>>> Good luck and send my sales commission and consulting fee to the >>>> address below. >>>> >>>> Drivel: >>>> [Q] What's the difference between a bribe and a commission? >>>> [A] The bribe is paid in advance. The commission is paid afterwards. >>>> Otherwise, they're exactly the same. >>> >>> Aren't trickle and float chargers low current things? Just enough to >>> cancel self-discharge. Wall-wart stuff. >>> >>> >> Trickle charge is a fine way to kill batteries. > > There's not a lot of difference between float charging and > constant-current trickle charging. A car battery might self-discharge > at something like 100 mA average, so pushing in 150 shouldn't do much > harm. I guess the issue might be temperature if the heap is parked > outside. > >
Trickle charging for 6 months will leave a non-conducting layer where you dont want it. Using a 24hour timer to charge for 15 minutes/day is better. Using a smart charger to start charging when the battery is below 70-80 percent, is even better.
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 03:37:47 +0200, Sjouke Burry
<burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote:

>On 01.04.16 1:02, John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:47:48 +0200, Sjouke Burry >> <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote: >> >>> On 31.03.16 18:21, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:10:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:07:21 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >>>>>> So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >>>>>> I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >>>>>> buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >>>>>> >>>>>> (*) Cost no object. >>>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>>> >>>>> Well, I can tell you what NOT to purchase. These are all losers: >>>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/dead-battery-chargers.html> >>>>> Everyone of them either destroyed themselves playing float charger, >>>>> killed the battery, or both. The carnage was both messy and >>>>> expensive. Please note that only one of these was mine. The rest >>>>> belonged to a mountain top radio site owner that was too cheap to do >>>>> it right. Incidentally, there were two more chargers that were still >>>>> working on another site, which were pre-emptively replaced before they >>>>> blew up. >>>>> >>>>> So, what went wrong: >>>>> >>>>> 1. The chargers are not temperature compensated. Never mind the air >>>>> or building temperature. It's the battery temperature that's >>>>> important. With the battery sitting on a concrete slab, it's the >>>>> temperature of the concrete, not the air or building. Either find a >>>>> charger with a thermistor temp sensor, or put some insulation under >>>>> the battery. >>>>> >>>>> 2. While some of the chargers claimed automatic charge control in 3 >>>>> stages (bulk, absorption, float), none of them claimed that you could >>>>> just leave the charger connected to the battery forever. The result >>>>> was serious overcharging as the float charge did not switch off >>>>> totally when fully charged. The original idea behind the float cycle >>>>> was to bring the battery from 95% to 100% SoC. The battery would last >>>>> longer if it just stayed at 95% charge (despite claims that full >>>>> charge prevents the build up of sulfate crystals). >>>>> >>>>> 3. While all the chargers in the photo had some form of heat sinks on >>>>> the diodes and regulators, none were large enough or sufficiently >>>>> vented to be useful if the charger was expected to supply a >>>>> substantial fraction of the power. This happened after power outages >>>>> and heavy transmitter use. Get something with big ugly heat sinks and >>>>> possibly a fan. >>>>> >>>>> 4. Fuse? Whazzat? One charger went nuts and produced an impressive >>>>> hot battery acid fountain. Install a fusible link, fuse, circuit >>>>> breaker, or relay disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> 5. There was no monitoring or telemetry. I didn't even know we had a >>>>> problem until I arrived to do something else, and found the hot >>>>> battery acid fountain. Meters, sensors, gauges, and data loggers are >>>>> a good thing to have. >>>>> >>>>> I also maintained some generators on various mountain tops. >>>>> Fortunately, I don't do that any more. The problems are similar to >>>>> starting your pickup. The generators were all 24VDC, used two lead >>>>> acid batteries in series, but were otherwise similar to the previously >>>>> mentioned backup batteries. >>>>> >>>>> We used two types of float chargers. The generators use Deltran >>>>> (except 24VDC): >>>>> <http://www.batterytender.com/Chargers/Water-Resistant-Power-Tender-Plus-12V-5A.html> >>>>> Most everything else uses marine chargers from Statpower/Xantrex: >>>>> <http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/battery-chargers/truecharge.aspx> >>>>> Actually, we bought a pile of Statpower TC10HW, but those are obsolete >>>>> and no longer sold. >>>>> >>>>> Here's a lousy photo: >>>>> <http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/slides/40A%20battery%20charger.html> >>>>> of a Statpower 12V 40A version that runs this battery pile: >>>>> <http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/slides/Batteries.html> >>>>> However, that's probably overkill for what you need. Here's another >>>>> lousy photo of a similar Xantrex charger. It's the yellow colored >>>>> thing near the bottom of the rack: >>>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/W6JWS-2m-repeater-repair-log/rack.jpg> >>>>> Pretend you don't notice the inadequately thin wires connected to the >>>>> big blue batteries in the background. (I didn't do that). >>>>> >>>>> What to buy? I dunno. Maybe go to a trailer supply house, or better >>>>> yet, a marine electronics dealer, and see what they have to offer. If >>>>> money is really no object, then get something by Xantrex in the 10A or >>>>> 20A range. >>>>> <http://www.westmarine.com/mounted-battery-chargers> >>>>> This one looks good: >>>>> <http://www.westmarine.com/buy/xantrex--truecharge2-battery-chargers--P009_271_009_501> >>>>> Notice the optional remote battery temperature sensor. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck and send my sales commission and consulting fee to the >>>>> address below. >>>>> >>>>> Drivel: >>>>> [Q] What's the difference between a bribe and a commission? >>>>> [A] The bribe is paid in advance. The commission is paid afterwards. >>>>> Otherwise, they're exactly the same. >>>> >>>> Aren't trickle and float chargers low current things? Just enough to >>>> cancel self-discharge. Wall-wart stuff. >>>> >>>> >>> Trickle charge is a fine way to kill batteries. >> >> There's not a lot of difference between float charging and >> constant-current trickle charging. A car battery might self-discharge >> at something like 100 mA average, so pushing in 150 shouldn't do much >> harm. I guess the issue might be temperature if the heap is parked >> outside. >> >> >Trickle charging for 6 months will leave a non-conducting layer >where you dont want it. >Using a 24hour timer to charge for 15 minutes/day is better. >Using a smart charger to start charging when the battery is >below 70-80 percent, is even better.
He could also get out and drive it around the block now and then. Pick up some fried chicken maybe. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
On 2016-03-31, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:20:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> > wrote: > >>On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:27:23 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>Now all I need is some kind of magnetic power plug that gracefully >>>disconnects when I drive off >:-} >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >>This is what the tow truck drivers use for their jump start cables: >><http://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/products/sbe-sbx-sbo/index.aspx> >><http://www.walmart.com/ip/ANDERSON-POWER-PRODUCTS-6319-Power-Connector-6AWG-50A-SY6319/41121555> >><http://www.parts-express.com/smh-sy50-series-8-awg-50a-breakaway-dc-power-connector--263-110> >><http://bdbatteries.com/anderson.php> >>They come in a wide variety of current ratings and sizes. I have a >>pair under my hood for connecting jump start cables. They will come >>apart if pulled inline, but not if pulled sideways. I know. I've >>done it both ways. > > I would have thought by now someone would have come up with a Rube > Goldberg inductive (or RF) coupling method >:-}
was about to suggest it... -- \_(&#12484;)_
On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 1:12:28 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:21:23 -0700, John Larkin > <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > > >Aren't trickle and float chargers low current things? Just enough to > >cancel self-discharge. Wall-wart stuff. > > Jim wanted the best: > >> (*) Cost no object. > > Methinks buying a charger that can do float charging, but also has all > the controller, monitoring, metering, sensing, and shutdown circuitry > necessary to protect the charger and the battery, is a good > investment. Yes, it's overkill, but methinks worthwhile. For > example, check out the local marina or trailer park and see if they > use cheap or small chargers? Some do, but they don't last. > Eventually, most boaters and campers end up with much higher end > chargers. I've gone through that experience myself, with marine > electronics and mountain top generators. I gave up on low end junk > long ago. > > I'll go into more detail on what can go wrong later. Gotta run...
You have something else going on there and it's not the cheap chargers. The most likely defect of the installation is damaging deep discharge of the battery during back-up, setting you up for overcharging and venting on the next charge cycle. How do we know this? Take a look at the gazillions of emergency lighting batteries and their relatively crude battery technology. We're just not seeing these blowing up left and right. Is a single one of your batteries monitored for discharge below 1.75 V/cell at Ta=25oC with -2mV/oC temperature adjust? I didn't think so...
> > > -- > Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:47:48 +0200, Sjouke Burry
<burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> Gave us:

>Trickle charge is a fine way to kill batteries.
The cheap shit you have experience with, sure.
On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:01:23 -0400 DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
<DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote in Message id:
<k1qofblnhah2377rcodgauspabhl9adhif@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:07:21 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> Gave us: > >>I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >> >>So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >> >>I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >>buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >> >>(*) Cost no object. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > > Put a battery switch on the thing, and suffer the fact that clock >setting regimens are also called for at that point. > >http://tinyurl.com/gulw49t
Since you're killfiled by JT, here's a link to a cheaper one. http://www.cjponyparts.com/battery-master-on-off-switch-universal/p/HW656/?gclid=CjwKEAjwuPi3BRClk8TyyMLloxgSJAAC0XsjTAX1ewSfKOgkxZQ2NwdssDM15vHTxol9vCtMrSJ1zhoCTcjw_wcB http://www.banggood.com/Vihicle-Cut-Off-Switch-Side-Post-Battery-Master-Disconnect-Isolator-p-906712.html?currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_content=jude&utm_campaign=auto-chen&gclid=CjwKEAjwuPi3BRClk8TyyMLloxgSJAAC0Xsjq02ntw1pgzlrVzpTStD1cGZh5zutrfBiipw2H41JZRoCh-Pw_wcB
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 11:05:17 -0400, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:01:23 -0400 DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno ><DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote in Message id: ><k1qofblnhah2377rcodgauspabhl9adhif@4ax.com>: > >>On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:07:21 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> Gave us: >> >>>I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >>> >>>So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >>> >>>I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >>>buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >>> >>>(*) Cost no object. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> Put a battery switch on the thing, and suffer the fact that clock >>setting regimens are also called for at that point. >> >>http://tinyurl.com/gulw49t > >Since you're killfiled by JT, here's a link to a cheaper one. >http://www.cjponyparts.com/battery-master-on-off-switch-universal/p/HW656/?gclid=CjwKEAjwuPi3BRClk8TyyMLloxgSJAAC0XsjTAX1ewSfKOgkxZQ2NwdssDM15vHTxol9vCtMrSJ1zhoCTcjw_wcB > >http://www.banggood.com/Vihicle-Cut-Off-Switch-Side-Post-Battery-Master-Disconnect-Isolator-p-906712.html?currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_content=jude&utm_campaign=auto-chen&gclid=CjwKEAjwuPi3BRClk8TyyMLloxgSJAAC0Xsjq02ntw1pgzlrVzpTStD1cGZh5zutrfBiipw2H41JZRoCh-Pw_wcB
The _self-discharge_ of a lead-acid battery is 10-35mA when _new_. Besides this is a pick-em-up truck with no clock ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The touchstone of liberalism is intolerance
John Larkin wrote:
> > On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 04:13:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > > > My truck sat over five months, while I tracked down some parts. > >Needless to say, the battery was run down when I finished the repairs. > >The dumbass charger wouldn't detect the battery, so I fired up the lawn > >tractor and let it charge the truck's battery. > > Many modern electronic chargers will not put current into a dead > battery. I suspect it's part of a scam; car parts places sell you such > a charger, it doesn't work, you come back, and they sell you a new > battery. > > I keep a cheap bench power supply at home and another one up at the > cabin. It's good for all sorts of stuff.
I blame lawyers, for tying to protect a few idiots from themselves.
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:12:23 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >John Larkin wrote: >> >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 04:13:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > My truck sat over five months, while I tracked down some parts. >> >Needless to say, the battery was run down when I finished the repairs. >> >The dumbass charger wouldn't detect the battery, so I fired up the lawn >> >tractor and let it charge the truck's battery. >> >> Many modern electronic chargers will not put current into a dead >> battery. I suspect it's part of a scam; car parts places sell you such >> a charger, it doesn't work, you come back, and they sell you a new >> battery. >> >> I keep a cheap bench power supply at home and another one up at the >> cabin. It's good for all sorts of stuff. > > > I blame lawyers, for tying to protect a few idiots from themselves.
There's nothing hazardous about charging a zero-volt car battery. And contrary to the opinion of the experts at Cragan Auto Parts, a zero-volt battery is not permanently dead. I returned the stupid charger and got my money back. I found an old DSL wall-wart and put a belt sander in series to keep it from frying, ran that for a few hours, and it started up. Now I keep a power supply around. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 20:15:07 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

>On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:12:23 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" ><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> >>John Larkin wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 04:13:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > My truck sat over five months, while I tracked down some parts. >>> >Needless to say, the battery was run down when I finished the repairs. >>> >The dumbass charger wouldn't detect the battery, so I fired up the lawn >>> >tractor and let it charge the truck's battery. >>> >>> Many modern electronic chargers will not put current into a dead >>> battery. I suspect it's part of a scam; car parts places sell you such >>> a charger, it doesn't work, you come back, and they sell you a new >>> battery. >>> >>> I keep a cheap bench power supply at home and another one up at the >>> cabin. It's good for all sorts of stuff. >> >> >> I blame lawyers, for tying to protect a few idiots from themselves. > >There's nothing hazardous about charging a zero-volt car battery. And >contrary to the opinion of the experts at Cragan Auto Parts, a >zero-volt battery is not permanently dead. > >I returned the stupid charger and got my money back. I found an old >DSL wall-wart and put a belt sander in series to keep it from frying, >ran that for a few hours, and it started up. Now I keep a power supply >around.
Some that are taken to zero cannot be recovered, and that is actually usually the case. Deep cycle marine, etc. batteries are more tolerant. But for the most part, one should not allow it to happen.