John Larkin wrote:> > On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:12:23 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > >John Larkin wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 04:13:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > >> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > My truck sat over five months, while I tracked down some parts. > >> >Needless to say, the battery was run down when I finished the repairs. > >> >The dumbass charger wouldn't detect the battery, so I fired up the lawn > >> >tractor and let it charge the truck's battery. > >> > >> Many modern electronic chargers will not put current into a dead > >> battery. I suspect it's part of a scam; car parts places sell you such > >> a charger, it doesn't work, you come back, and they sell you a new > >> battery. > >> > >> I keep a cheap bench power supply at home and another one up at the > >> cabin. It's good for all sorts of stuff. > > > > > > I blame lawyers, for tying to protect a few idiots from themselves. > > There's nothing hazardous about charging a zero-volt car battery. And > contrary to the opinion of the experts at Cragan Auto Parts, a > zero-volt battery is not permanently dead. > > I returned the stupid charger and got my money back. I found an old > DSL wall-wart and put a belt sander in series to keep it from frying, > ran that for a few hours, and it started up. Now I keep a power supply > around.It isn't designed for zero volts detection. It is designed to prevent some fool from connecting it backwards, and causing the battery to boil over or even explode. Have you ever seen the damage cause by a battery explosion under the hood of a car? I have. You can't flush all of the acid out, so over time it cause a lot of rust, and it weakens the steel, if it is in contact for very long. Early car battery chargers were just a light bulb in series with a rectifier that was lugged into a 110 volt outlet. No protection from electrocution, at all. They were quickly removed from the market, because they caused a lot of battery damage, and injured enough people to be declared unsafe. My battery charger is home brewed. I bought a new surplus battery eliminator for motorhome, and a 10A variac. I mounted them into the aluminum case that was from a scrapped W.W.II RADAR receiver. I built it while I was in in high school, and it is still working, over 45 years later. I can set it to any initial charge current, and I can plug it into a timer if I won't be right there while it charges. It isn't pretty, but it is very reliable.
OT: Lead Acid Float Charger
Started by ●March 30, 2016
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 09:12:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:> >John Larkin wrote: >> >> On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:12:23 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >John Larkin wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 04:13:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> >> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > My truck sat over five months, while I tracked down some parts. >> >> >Needless to say, the battery was run down when I finished the repairs. >> >> >The dumbass charger wouldn't detect the battery, so I fired up the lawn >> >> >tractor and let it charge the truck's battery. >> >> >> >> Many modern electronic chargers will not put current into a dead >> >> battery. I suspect it's part of a scam; car parts places sell you such >> >> a charger, it doesn't work, you come back, and they sell you a new >> >> battery. >> >> >> >> I keep a cheap bench power supply at home and another one up at the >> >> cabin. It's good for all sorts of stuff. >> > >> > >> > I blame lawyers, for tying to protect a few idiots from themselves. >> >> There's nothing hazardous about charging a zero-volt car battery. And >> contrary to the opinion of the experts at Cragan Auto Parts, a >> zero-volt battery is not permanently dead. >> >> I returned the stupid charger and got my money back. I found an old >> DSL wall-wart and put a belt sander in series to keep it from frying, >> ran that for a few hours, and it started up. Now I keep a power supply >> around. > > > It isn't designed for zero volts detection. It is designed to prevent >some fool from connecting it backwards, and causing the battery to boil >over or even explode. Have you ever seen the damage cause by a battery >explosion under the hood of a car? I have. You can't flush all of the >acid out, so over time it cause a lot of rust, and it weakens the steel, >if it is in contact for very long. > > Early car battery chargers were just a light bulb in series with a >rectifier that was lugged into a 110 volt outlet. No protection from >electrocution, at all. They were quickly removed from the market, >because they caused a lot of battery damage, and injured enough people >to be declared unsafe. My battery charger is home brewed. I bought a new >surplus battery eliminator for motorhome, and a 10A variac. I mounted >them into the aluminum case that was from a scrapped W.W.II RADAR >receiver. I built it while I was in in high school, and it is still >working, over 45 years later. I can set it to any initial charge >current, and I can plug it into a timer if I won't be right there while >it charges. It isn't pretty, but it is very reliable.The parts-store electronic chargers are switchmode and reverse protected. And current limited. And won't put current into a dead battery. That has to be by design, which could be deliberate design or very stupid design. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 03:21:10 -0400, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:>On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 20:15:07 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us: > >>On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:12:23 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> >>>John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 04:13:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >>>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > My truck sat over five months, while I tracked down some parts. >>>> >Needless to say, the battery was run down when I finished the repairs. >>>> >The dumbass charger wouldn't detect the battery, so I fired up the lawn >>>> >tractor and let it charge the truck's battery. >>>> >>>> Many modern electronic chargers will not put current into a dead >>>> battery. I suspect it's part of a scam; car parts places sell you such >>>> a charger, it doesn't work, you come back, and they sell you a new >>>> battery. >>>> >>>> I keep a cheap bench power supply at home and another one up at the >>>> cabin. It's good for all sorts of stuff. >>> >>> >>> I blame lawyers, for tying to protect a few idiots from themselves. >> >>There's nothing hazardous about charging a zero-volt car battery. And >>contrary to the opinion of the experts at Cragan Auto Parts, a >>zero-volt battery is not permanently dead. >> >>I returned the stupid charger and got my money back. I found an old >>DSL wall-wart and put a belt sander in series to keep it from frying, >>ran that for a few hours, and it started up. Now I keep a power supply >>around. > > Some that are taken to zero cannot be recovered, and that is actually >usually the case. Deep cycle marine, etc. batteries are more tolerant. > > But for the most part, one should not allow it to happen.I didn't discharge the battery on purpose. It worked fine for another year, when I sold the car. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
Den 30/03/2016 kl. 22.07 skrev Jim Thompson:> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. > > So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( > > I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can > buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. > > (*) Cost no object. > > ...Jim Thompson >The best charger is this: CTEK Battery Chargers Are Trusted by Top Brands: http://smartercharger.com/ - But be very careful when connecting a power source to your car. The car electronics do not like power glitches. The foreign accumulator should be activated "slowly with e.g. Power MOSFETs. How about a home made Jumpstart accumulator consisting of four M1A 3,2Ah A123system cells with heavy duty wires and connectors?: A123 Worlds Smallest VS. "Strongest" 12V Jumpstart battery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcvmvrmTMMk - "Wrong question?" Choose LiFePO4-accumulators instead with UnderVoltage-cut-off - I admit that they are expensive: Mar 24, 2014, NEC to buy A123 battery systems unit from China's Wanxiang: http://www.reuters.com/article/nec-wanxiang-a-idUST9N0MD00820140324 60Ah: http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-starter-battery.htm http://www.a123systems.com/collateral/documents/english-us/a123-12v-starter-battery.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20150501002319/http://www.a123systems.com/collateral/documents/english-us/a123-12v-starter-battery.pdf Bases in USA: http://www.a123systems.com/about-us-locations.htm A123Systems - this is for the M1-cell: http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1 Quote: "...Curent test projecting excellent calendar life: 17% impedance growth and 23% capacity loss in 15 [fifteen!] years at 100% SOC, 60 deg. C..." September 2008, Phenomenal positive revealing Sandia-test: http://www.lifebatt.com/sandiareport.pdf Quote: "... Test results have indicated that the LiFeBatt battery technology can function up to a 10C discharge rate with minimal energy loss compared to the 1 h discharged rate (1C). ... The majority of the capacity loss occurred during the initial [!] 2,000 cycles, so it is projected that the LiFeBatt should PSOC cycle well beyond 8,394 cycles with less than 20% capacity loss. ..." http://www.lifebatt.com/sandiareport.pdf Quote: "... [See graph pdf-page 23] [ Read: 48% capacity availably at -30�C. ] [ Read: 65% capacity availably at -20�C. ] [ Read: 74% capacity availably at 0�C. ] ..." PERFORMANCE OF PHOSPHATE LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES IN MOTIVE APPLICATIONS http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2005/NguyenPaper2005.pdf Quote: "... On the other hand, a common high capacity rated cobalt lithium-ion cell is unable to maintain anywhere close to its original capacity. The cobalt lithium-ion cell may start out at a higher capacity, but it quickly loses its capacity after several cycles. However, the phosphate lithium-ion cell is able to continue cycling well and maintaining its capacity. ... Current test data on a cell level shows an expected 2000 cycles to 80% of original capacity...The battery can now match or exceed the life expectancy of the electric vehicle itself. ..." http://www.battcon.com/ArchivePapers.htm LiFePO4-accumulators are secure compared to standard Li-ion: Nail penetration testing A123 Li-ion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb_J2QQ0k-4 September 21, 2008, LiFePO4 Batteries: A Breakthrough For Electric Vehicles: http://www.metaefficient.com/rechargeable-batteries/innovative-lifepo4-batteries-electric-vehicles.html Quote: "... Here�s a list of all the advantages of LiFePo4 batteries: * Safe technology � will not catch fire or explode with overcharge ... * Does not suffer from �thermal runaway� * Can be used safely in high ambient temperatures of up to 60C [Celsius] without any degradation in performance ... * Can be safely rapidly recharged � when fully discharged can be brought to a state of over 90% fully charged in 15 minutes ..." - Standard Li-Ion: Exploding Laptops on Good Morning America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvTRKKS0wpo Nail penetration testing Standard Li-ion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f30fBFitkSM Modify Li-Po Battery Nail Penetration Test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vdOC8dN3_I Lithium Polymer Battery Explosion's (liposack): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw - Lead-acid accumulators are not designed to be used: Standard lead-acid accumulators works for 50-100 full cycles: http://www.electricrider.com/batteries/index.htm Quote: "... The cycle life of sealed lead-acid is directly related to the depth of discharge. The typical number of discharge/charge cycles at 25�C (77�F) with respect to the depth of discharge is: * 50 - 100 cycles with 100% depth of discharge (full discharge) * 150 - 250 cycles with 70% depth of discharge (deep discharge) * 300 - 500 cycles with 50% depth of discharge (partial discharge) * 800 and more cycles with 30% depth of discharge (shallow discharge) [three years?] ..." - Have not seen these LiFePO4-accumulators yet: 11 March 2009 Lithium batteries charge ahead. Researchers demonstrate cells that can power up in seconds: http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090311/full/news.2009.156.html?s=news_rss Quote: "... That seemed to be the case for lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), a material that is used in the cathode of a small number of commercial batteries. But when Ceder and Kang did some calculations, they saw that the compound could theoretically do much better. Its crystal structure creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through", says Ceder. "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates." ... The authors helped the ions by coating the surface of the cathode with a thin layer of lithium phosphate glass, which is known to be an excellent lithium conductor. Testing their newly-coated cathode, they found that they could charge and discharge it in as little as 9 seconds. ..." br, Glenn
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
Den 02/04/2016 kl. 18.57 skrev Glenn: ...> "Wrong question?" > > Choose LiFePO4-accumulators instead with UnderVoltage-cut-off - I admit > that they are expensive:Please note that the a123systems starter battery has built-in BMS with among other Under-Voltage cutoff - but if you have some extra power drain plugged in your car - you should put yet another Under-Voltage cutoff that saves 1-30% of the starter battery capacity.> > Mar 24, 2014, NEC to buy A123 battery systems unit from China's Wanxiang: > http://www.reuters.com/article/nec-wanxiang-a-idUST9N0MD00820140324 > > 60Ah: > http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-starter-battery.htm > http://www.a123systems.com/collateral/documents/english-us/a123-12v-starter-battery.pdf > > https://web.archive.org/web/20150501002319/http://www.a123systems.com/collateral/documents/english-us/a123-12v-starter-battery.pdf... Quote: "... Smart on-board battery management system (BMS) electronics report real-time data and diagnostics to protect the battery and prevent premature failures, reducing service and warranty costs. The integrated BMS provides cell balancing and protection as well as built-in system-level safety features for under/over voltage cutoff, overcharge and over temperature protection. ..." Oh - did I forgot to mention that LiFePO4 do not contain lead :-) br, Glenn
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:57:34 +0200, Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote:>Den 30/03/2016 kl. 22.07 skrev Jim Thompson: >> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >> >> So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >> >> I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >> buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >> >> (*) Cost no object. >> >> ...Jim Thompson >> > >The best charger is this: > >CTEK Battery Chargers Are Trusted by Top Brands: >http://smartercharger.com/ >[snip] Since I know battery charging temperature behavior rather well (see my patents), maybe I should just roll my own with 100mA capability ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The touchstone of liberalism is intolerance
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
Den 02/04/2016 kl. 20.00 skrev Jim Thompson:> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:57:34 +0200, Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Den 30/03/2016 kl. 22.07 skrev Jim Thompson: >>> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >>> >>> So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >>> >>> I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >>> buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >>> >>> (*) Cost no object. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >> >> The best charger is this: >> >> CTEK Battery Chargers Are Trusted by Top Brands: >> http://smartercharger.com/ >> > > [snip] > > Since I know battery charging temperature behavior rather well (see my > patents), maybe I should just roll my own with 100mA capability ;-) > > ...Jim Thompson >OK... In that case - make your own Bluetooth 4.x/BLE enabled OBD ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics ) (with optional IEEE 1451 support :-) , that sends an email/notification to you(r phone), when there is lower than 25% charge left. Then you can hook up your normal charger for some hours. (send email again when charged...) Do you have many cars, since the car battery can happen to be totally discharged? Glenn
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 20:59:38 +0200, Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote:>Den 02/04/2016 kl. 20.00 skrev Jim Thompson: >> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:57:34 +0200, Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Den 30/03/2016 kl. 22.07 skrev Jim Thompson: >>>> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. >>>> >>>> So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( >>>> >>>> I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can >>>> buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. >>>> >>>> (*) Cost no object. >>>> >>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>> >>> >>> The best charger is this: >>> >>> CTEK Battery Chargers Are Trusted by Top Brands: >>> http://smartercharger.com/ >>> >> >> [snip] >> >> Since I know battery charging temperature behavior rather well (see my >> patents), maybe I should just roll my own with 100mA capability ;-) >> >> ...Jim Thompson >> > >OK... > >In that case - make your own Bluetooth 4.x/BLE enabled OBD ( >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics ) (with optional IEEE >1451 support :-) , that sends an email/notification to you(r phone), >when there is lower than 25% charge left. > >Then you can hook up your normal charger for some hours. (send email >again when charged...) > >Do you have many cars, since the car battery can happen to be totally >discharged? > >GlennJust two vehicles, an Infiniti Q45 and a Nissan Frontier Pick-em-up. The car gets driven every day or three. The truck hasn't been driven since early December ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The touchstone of liberalism is intolerance
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
Den 02/04/2016 kl. 20.00 skrev Jim Thompson:> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:57:34 +0200, Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote:...>> The best charger is this: >> >> CTEK Battery Chargers Are Trusted by Top Brands: >> http://smartercharger.com/ >> > > [snip] > > Since I know battery charging temperature behavior rather well (see my > patents), maybe I should just roll my own with 100mA capability ;-) > > ...Jim Thompson >Please note that the charger tests your battery and signals if it is faulty - even when the battery is car connected. Lead-acid fails from time to time. The charger is reverse polarity protected [ idiot proof :-) ]: http://smartercharger.com/battery-chargers/#CTEK%20Multi%20US%204.3 Quote: "... The charger can solve a broad range of battery-related problems and is the perfect charger for those with high demands. The MUS 4.3 offers features such as battery diagnosis that shows if a battery can receive and retain a charge, a special reconditioning function that restores stratified and deeply discharged batteries, unique maintenance charging, a mode for optimized charging during cold winter days and the charging of demanding AGM batteries (i.e. Optima). The unique display allows the user to follow the entire charging process. ... The MUS 4.3 is a fully automatic 8-step charger that delivers selectable 0.8 A or 4.3 A to 12 V batteries from 1.2�110 Ah and is suitable for maintenance charging up to 160 Ah. The charger is splash and dust proof, designed to protect vehicle electronics and non-sparking, reverse polarity protected and short-circuit proof. It is delivered with a 5-year warranty. ... * Recondition of deep discharged batteries * Patented desulphation that extends the battery life ..." - Please note: I have no shares in CTEK - yet... Glenn
Reply by ●April 2, 20162016-04-02
Den l�rdag den 2. april 2016 kl. 20.00.49 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:57:34 +0200, Glenn <glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Den 30/03/2016 kl. 22.07 skrev Jim Thompson: > >> I drive my pick-em-up truck every few months. > >> > >> So the battery is dead when I go to use it... like today :-( > >> > >> I'm looking for recommendations for the _best_ (*) float charger I can > >> buy to just plug the truck into when it's parked. > >> > >> (*) Cost no object. > >> > >> ...Jim Thompson > >> > > > >The best charger is this: > > > >CTEK Battery Chargers Are Trusted by Top Brands: > >http://smartercharger.com/ > > > > [snip] > > Since I know battery charging temperature behavior rather well (see my > patents), maybe I should just roll my own with 100mA capability ;-) >http://www.ti.com/product/UC2906 plus a transistor and a few resistors, it comes in DIP so it would be quick to do on a stripboard feed it from an old laptop charger, they are commonly 19V -Lasse
