Using mobile phone as an internet radio

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 21:52:53 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton"
<nospamclayton@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>"jim stone" <tgh6h56nzh@mail.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:k4flsm$pbt$1@dont-email.me...
>> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got 
>> mobile phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it 
>> as an internet radio.
>>
>> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it 
>> to play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and 
>> speakers.
>>
>> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering 
>> if this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its 
>> working life ?
>>
>
>The bits that will fail [first] in a mobile phone are the battery and 
>display.  You can replace the battery and switch off the display.

Except phones with hardwired batteries.

>I have two 40+ year old solid state radios that still work. 

My 39YO HP45 still works but the power switch is too flaky to be usable.

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be 
>interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment 
>carefully.  

It's an accelerated life test.  The deration curve of the incandescent
light bulb is well known and assumed to be 
  (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
<http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph.  Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
a bulb to blow.  So, they increase the applied voltage, which
dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
the higher voltage.  Then, they work backwards on the curve to
estimate what it would be at the design voltage.  

When I was specifying lamps for a direction finder for the USCG, I had
to deal with minimum lifetime specs.  I asked the vendor (Dialight)
how they tested their T-1 3/4 bulbs and was told that they did an
accelerated lifetime test on a few bulbs from each lot to insure
adequate lifetime along with the usual sampled 1.5% AQL failure test.

>Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since 
>the leading order effect cancels.

Yep.  As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
middle, mostly from vibration flexing.

>I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the 
>way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot 
>vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to 
>temperature and reduce the inrush current.

Yep.  See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling.  The same lamps in the
lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.

>The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its 
>melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought 
>to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just 
>material migration due to sublimation.

Yep, but different failure mode.  When the extremely thin layer of
tungsten plating evaporates, the light becomes dimmer.  Below some
brightness level, it is considered to have failed.  However, most such
tungsten coated filaments fail due to corrosion of the base steel
alloy wire which is exposed to the internal gases inside the bulb
after the tungsten evaporates.  The gases (mostly nitrogen and some
argon) are inert, but there's a little water vapor outgassing from
heating the glass envelope, which eventually corrodes the filament.
Other failure modes are hot spots and notches caused by manufacturing
variations and tungsten evaporation.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On 2012-10-02, jim stone <tgh6h56nzh@mail.invalid> wrote:
> Not being able to find a small internet radio to buy we liked, we got mobile 
> phone with which we link with wi-fi to a modem router, and use it as an 
> internet radio.
>
> Keeping the phoned plugged into its charger all the time, we are using it to 
> play *all-day* background classical music through an amplifier and speakers.
>
> Since the phone has no 'moving parts' unlike a computer, we are wondering if 
> this continuous playing all day of the phone is going to shorten its working 
> life ? 

It may be bad for the battery

-- 
&#9858;&#9859; 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

On 2012-10-03, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

>
> My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
> print something everyday (a waste of paper)

load the paper tray with scrap paper, use the bypass when you want to
print something for real.

another option is to make a document with no ink and print that each day
at the end of the week collect the blank pages from the output tray
and put them back in the input tray.

-- 
&#9858;&#9859; 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

On 03/10/2012 00:49, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "David Woolley" <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message
> news:k4fq2r$ics$1@dont-email.me...
>> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> My new computer has a solid-state "hard disk", and you
>>> wouldn't believe how fast it boots up, or how fast programs
>>> start to run.
>
>> These, if flash memory, do have a definite wear out mechanism,
>> although they do try to avoid writing to the same spot, even if the
>> software does, to mitigate this.
>
> Correct. SSDs are an exception. They contain "leveling" software that makes
> sure the disk is written to evenly. The Crucial disk I use is spec'd at
> about 40TB of total writes.

For most usage scenarios the theoretical lifetimes of modern SSDs are 
longer than HDDs.

On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
>
>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>> carefully.
>
> It's an accelerated life test.  The deration curve of the incandescent
> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
>    (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph.  Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
> a bulb to blow.  So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> the higher voltage.  Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.

You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known 
more accurately than 12 to 16.

>
> When I was specifying lamps for a direction finder for the USCG, I had
> to deal with minimum lifetime specs.  I asked the vendor (Dialight)
> how they tested their T-1 3/4 bulbs and was told that they did an
> accelerated lifetime test on a few bulbs from each lot to insure
> adequate lifetime along with the usual sampled 1.5% AQL failure test.
>
>> Electromigration is a smaller effect in an AC bulb, since
>> the leading order effect cancels.
>
> Yep.  As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.

I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said.  The 
wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of 
progressive fatigue failure.

>
>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>
> Yep.  See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling.  The same lamps in the
> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.

I was actually disagreeing with you.  There are lots of possible reasons 
for the marquee lights failing prematurely.  I'm not a tungsten expert 
myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a 
dramatic shortening of life due to cycling.  I'm not saying it's 
impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.

>
>> The tungsten in the lamp is run within a few hundred kelvins of its
>> melting point, so it's always in the fully annealed state, which ought
>> to mean that there are no metal fatigue mechanisms operating, just
>> material migration due to sublimation.
>
> Yep, but different failure mode.  When the extremely thin layer of
> tungsten plating evaporates, the light becomes dimmer.  Below some
> brightness level, it is considered to have failed.  However, most such
> tungsten coated filaments fail due to corrosion of the base steel
> alloy wire which is exposed to the internal gases inside the bulb
> after the tungsten evaporates.  The gases (mostly nitrogen and some
> argon) are inert, but there's a little water vapor outgassing from
> heating the glass envelope, which eventually corrodes the filament.
> Other failure modes are hot spots and notches caused by manufacturing
> variations and tungsten evaporation.
>

The filament isn't tungsten-plated, it's pure tungsten or a low alloy. 
The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.

And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet, 
http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm

which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.

You're making a lot of that up.  I'd still like to see 
carefully-collected data.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
>>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experiment
>>> carefully.
>>
>> It's an accelerated life test.  The deration curve of the incandescent
>> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
>>    (Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
>> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3544HPX_Catalog_2_11_09.pdf>
>> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph.  Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours for
>> a bulb to blow.  So, they increase the applied voltage, which
>> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
>> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
>> the higher voltage.  Then, they work backwards on the curve to
>> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
>
>You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known 
>more accurately than 12 to 16.

True, but I believe that's the range expected from different types of
light bulbs (nitrogen filled, halogen, vaccuum), and not the range
expected for a given device.  I suspect that more accurate exponent
value could be empirically determined for a given device, and later
used only for that device.

>> Yep.  As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
>> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
>I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said.  The 
>wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of 
>progressive fatigue failure.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb#Reducing_filament_evaporation>
   One of the problems of the standard electric light bulb is
   evaporation of the filament. Small variations in resistivity 
   along the filament cause "hot spots" to form at points of 
   higher resistivity; a variation of diameter of only 1% will 
   cause a 25% reduction in service life. The hot spots evaporate
   faster than the rest of the filament, increasing resistance 
   at that point a positive feedback that ends in the familiar 
   tiny gap in an otherwise healthy-looking filament.

Note the photo of the filament with a break in the middle.  When I was
quite young, I would break burnt out AC light bulbs to see what was
inside.  If the filament was intact, the break was always somewhere
near the middle.  If a piece broke off, one end of the broken piece
was usually near the middle.  In later years, I would look at the
remains of DC panel lights (usually type 47 for old Motorola radios)
and noted that the breaks were always near the supporting terminals,
probably due to metal migration.

>>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from the
>>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
>>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
>>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>>
>> Yep.  See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
>> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling.  The same lamps in the
>> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.
>
>I was actually disagreeing with you.  There are lots of possible reasons 
>for the marquee lights failing prematurely.  I'm not a tungsten expert 
>myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a 
>dramatic shortening of life due to cycling.  I'm not saying it's 
>impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.

So much for my anecdotal data.  My theater marquee experience was in
about 1966.  The theater actually did keep records so that they could
stock enough replacement bulbs, but I don't have copies of any of
that.  

I tried Googling for similar repetative on-off tests and didn't find
anything.  If I have time, I'll try again.  I must admit that the lack
of test data does look suspicious.  Perhaps sending the idea to
Mythbusters and have them runs a test?

>The filament isn't tungsten-plated, it's pure tungsten or a low alloy. 
>The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.

Oops.  I thought it was plated.

>And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet, 
>http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm
>
>which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.
>
>You're making a lot of that up.  I'd still like to see 
>carefully-collected data.

No, not fabricated.  It's my reliance on my memory in an area that I'm
not familiar with.  I tried Googling for the wire used, couldn't find
much, and made a bad guess.  The plating came from somehow getting
thorium coated tungsten wire used in vacuum tubes mixed up with light
bulbs.  Sorry for the errors and muddle.

>Cheers
>Phil Hobbs

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 10:34:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

>Tom Biasi wrote:
>>> Not so. With mechanical devices, regular moderate use provides a longer
>>> useful lifetime than using the device only rarely.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't agree but will say no more.
>
>Laser printers. I have given away for parts several laser printers because
>they sat unused 99% of the time, and started to jam when I printed the 
>one or two pages a month I needed them for.

I've seen flat spots on laser printers.  However, just running a few
pages through the printer usually returns them to normal.  If not, use
some rubber roller restorer to soften the rubber.
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/specials/misc/all/S03>

In my experience, many printer jams are caused by paper slippage on
the rollers.  Usually, it's the white paper dust that causes slippage,
but it can easily be household dust accumulated over the time the
printer was idle.  Maybe hitting the printer with a compressed air
blast before operating might help.

Another slippage problem is when the rubber surface becomes glazed or
polished.  The rubber roller restorer will take the surface gloss off
the rollers, and improve the traction, but if there's any rubber wear,
the roller(s) should be replaced.

>Not only did the rubber wheels dry out and lose their ability to grab paper,
>they flatten where they are pressed against something.
>
>I have a perfectly good Samsung laser printer in that condition now.

Ugh.  I don't have much nice to say about Samsung printers.  They're
cheap, function adequately, use overpriced toner carts, and don't last
very long.  I've never really done an autopsy to isolate a culprit.
The usual end of life symptoms are either paper jams or flimsy broken
plastic parts.

>My choices are to once a week clean out a jam, and clean the feed roller;
>print something everyday (a waste of paper); spend $15 for a new roller
>(including postage) and an hour to install it; or wait for a sale 
>(every 2-3 months) and buy a newer faster, higher resolution model with a 
>2,000 page toner cartridge included for less than the cost of a full load toner.

Chuckle.  Yeah, that's about it.  Next purchase, I suggest HP LaserJet
printers.  They have their own collection of problems, but parts and
refills are commonly available and cheap.  The printer cannibals sell
used parts and assemblies fairly cheap on eBay.  Also, expertise is
more easily found:
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
My favorite printer of the week is the HP 2300DN or DTN at between $90
to $220 used depending on condition and options.  Favorite feature is
double sided (duplex) printing.

>Geoff.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 19:42:21 -0400, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>My 39YO HP45 still works but the power switch is too flaky to be usable.

I collect old HP LED type calculators.  The HP 45 is well worth fixing
and using.

The switches tend to fail due to dirt accumulation and/or wearing a
grove into the PCB contact area from overuse.  I've repaired both
problems.
<http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv018.cgi?read=131014>
This is the dirt problem:
<http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f96/geoff_q/gunk.jpg>
I couldn't find a photo of a grove worn in the contacts.  I've been
quite successful with just cleaning the switch area.  I've also
repaired missing gold problems with gold leaf.  It was difficult,
required a microscope, a steady hand, no air movement, and
considerable patience.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

On Oct 4, 12:43=A0pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:03:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>
>
>
>
>
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >On 10/03/2012 09:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:32:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> >> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> =A0wrote:
>
> >>> I don't know of any data that supports this common idea, but I'd be
> >>> interested in reading about it if anybody's actually done the experim=
ent
> >>> carefully.
>
> >> It's an accelerated life test. =A0The deration curve of the incandesce=
nt
> >> light bulb is well known and assumed to be
> >> =A0 =A0(Vapplied/Vdesign)^-12 to ^-16 * Life at design voltage
> >> <http://www.welchallyn.com/documents/Lighting/OEM_Halogen_Lighting/MC3=
...>
> >> See Fig 5 on Pg 5 for the graph. =A0Nobody wants to wait 1000 hours fo=
r
> >> a bulb to blow. =A0So, they increase the applied voltage, which
> >> dramatically decreases the lifetime down to reasonable test times.
> >> Using a rack of bulbs, they obtain an average (or median) lifetime at
> >> the higher voltage. =A0Then, they work backwards on the curve to
> >> estimate what it would be at the design voltage.
>
> >You can't run an accelerated life test when the exponent isn't known
> >more accurately than 12 to 16.
>
> True, but I believe that's the range expected from different types of
> light bulbs (nitrogen filled, halogen, vaccuum), and not the range
> expected for a given device. =A0I suspect that more accurate exponent
> value could be empirically determined for a given device, and later
> used only for that device.
>
> >> Yep. =A0As I understand it (possible wrong), AC filaments break in the
> >> middle, mostly from vibration flexing.
>
> >I don't think so, because there's no mechanism for that, as I said. =A0T=
he
> >wire is fully annealed at all times, so there's no possibility of
> >progressive fatigue failure.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb#Reducing_filamen...=
>
> =A0 =A0One of the problems of the standard electric light bulb is
> =A0 =A0evaporation of the filament. Small variations in resistivity
> =A0 =A0along the filament cause "hot spots" to form at points of
> =A0 =A0higher resistivity; a variation of diameter of only 1% will
> =A0 =A0cause a 25% reduction in service life. The hot spots evaporate
> =A0 =A0faster than the rest of the filament, increasing resistance
> =A0 =A0at that point a positive feedback that ends in the familiar
> =A0 =A0tiny gap in an otherwise healthy-looking filament.
>
> Note the photo of the filament with a break in the middle. =A0When I was
> quite young, I would break burnt out AC light bulbs to see what was
> inside. =A0If the filament was intact, the break was always somewhere
> near the middle. =A0If a piece broke off, one end of the broken piece
> was usually near the middle. =A0In later years, I would look at the
> remains of DC panel lights (usually type 47 for old Motorola radios)
> and noted that the breaks were always near the supporting terminals,
> probably due to metal migration.
>
> >>> I suspect that the notion that cycling is hard on bulbs comes from th=
e
> >>> way that the bulb often fails at turn-on, when the thinnest hot spot
> >>> vapourizes before the rest of the filament has a chance to come up to
> >>> temperature and reduce the inrush current.
>
> >> Yep. =A0See my comments on the relatively high failure rate on the
> >> 40watt theater marquee lamps due to cycling. =A0The same lamps in the
> >> lobby and foyer were not cycled and seemed to last forever.
>
> >I was actually disagreeing with you. =A0There are lots of possible reaso=
ns
> >for the marquee lights failing prematurely. =A0I'm not a tungsten expert
> >myself, so I'd be very interested in seeing actual data that shows a
> >dramatic shortening of life due to cycling. =A0I'm not saying it's
> >impossible, just that I haven't seen any such data.
>
> So much for my anecdotal data. =A0My theater marquee experience was in
> about 1966. =A0The theater actually did keep records so that they could
> stock enough replacement bulbs, but I don't have copies of any of
> that.
>
> I tried Googling for similar repetative on-off tests and didn't find
> anything. =A0If I have time, I'll try again. =A0I must admit that the lac=
k
> of test data does look suspicious. =A0Perhaps sending the idea to
> Mythbusters and have them runs a test?
>
> >The filament isn't tungsten-plated, it's pure tungsten or a low alloy.
> >The brightness drop comes from tungsten condensing on the envelope.
>
> Oops. =A0I thought it was plated.
>
> >And the connecting wire isn't plain steel, it's generally Dumet,
> >http://www.jlcelectromet.com/dumetwire.htm
>
> >which is a 42% Ni steel with OFHC copper or nickel plating.
>
> >You're making a lot of that up. =A0I'd still like to see
> >carefully-collected data.
>
> No, not fabricated. =A0It's my reliance on my memory in an area that I'm
> not familiar with. =A0I tried Googling for the wire used, couldn't find
> much, and made a bad guess. =A0The plating came from somehow getting
> thorium coated tungsten wire used in vacuum tubes mixed up with light
> bulbs. =A0Sorry for the errors and muddle.
>
> >Cheers
> >Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann =A0 =A0 je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D =A0 =A0http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann =A0 =A0 AE6KS =A0 =A0831-336-2558- Hide quoted text=
 -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Jeff, Phil.   First I know nothing about incandescent bulbs.
But how about this as a model of why turning bulbs on and off might
cause them to fail sooner.

1.) I think we all observe that bulbs tend to blow when you turn them
on.
(unless you knock the lamp over or something.)

2.) I assume that the failure is mostly due to the thinner =91hot spots=92
on the filament.   Thinner regions heat up faster (higher resistance
with equal current).

3.) Now even if the thinner region doesn=92t blow, it still gets hotter
and loses a bit more tungsten than the rest of the filament.   (For
that small amount of time that it=92s turning on.)  But still this means
that turning on the bulb causes the thin region to become a bit
thinner.

And that=92s it.  Repeated on and off means that the thin region has a
higher average temperature than the thick part of the filament.  It
evaporates faster and fails sooner.

George H.