On 2023-12-16 02:27, Dave Platt wrote:> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote: >> I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a >> propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! >> "You have to take that around the back!" >> "I already did. No one answered the door." >> "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." >> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth >> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store >> policy) > > It looks to me as if this situation is covered by Code 58 of the > National Fire Prevention Association code (which is probably > incorporated "by reference" into most local codes). > > "In NFPA 58, buildings frequented by the public are limited to > cylinders with a propane capacity of 1 pound. The total quantity > stored is limited to 200 pounds of propane. Buildings not frequented > by the public are limited to a maximum quantity of 300 pounds of > propane. The cylinder size is not restricted" > > In article <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > >> I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that >> is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much. > > Yup. It's a double-acting bomb. > > The first boom is when the cylinder ruptures from overpressure. It's > like any metal tank exploding - it could throw metal shrapnel for > quite some distance. If the valve fails before the cylinder wall > does, it can turn the cylinder into a jet-propelled projectile. > > The second boom is when the propane (or butane or etc.) mixes with the > air sufficiently and then flashes into flame. It becomes a fuel/air > bomb, which does damage both by the force of the explosion, and by the > huge amount of heat released by a large flame-front. > > One of the big hazards of storing fuel-gas indoors is that effect #2 > can happen as a result of any leak from the storage cylinder. It > doesn't take an external fire or flame. A leaking valve, or a big > cylinder which falls over and damages or breaks off the valve > assembly, can convert a building into a time-bomb in very short order. > Any spark then sets off the explosion... flipping a wall light > switch on or off can be all it takes. Demolished buildings are > the result.There is a difference. If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be). On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen that is indeed explosive. My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and air, they could explode.> Youtube has plenty of clips - for example see > > https://youtu.be/BUJPvoped2M?si=PYlIBIbX6tFn6xY3-- Cheers, Carlos.
OT: (consumer) propane tanks
Started by ●December 15, 2023
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
The idiot "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:09:31 +0100 > Lines: 68 > Message-ID: <b5k05kxpkd.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > <o1bv4k-m4sv.ln1@coop.radagast.org> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-Trace: individual.net ybGuIK8r+o8+7zQKYNHeOwkQAjs5wa6Hb7JNyv9mo0MI0pSS3r > X-Orig-Path: Telcontar.valinor!not-for-mail > Cancel-Lock: sha1:vd6ob8bSWbLtUPkmDNboAr25hO0= sha256:SMWYQhXJ1aOklB4LsoM9DTz8SIGzFM2husSLQ+iWxyM= > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Content-Language: es-ES, en-CA > In-Reply-To: <o1bv4k-m4sv.ln1@coop.radagast.org> > X-Received-Bytes: 3958
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
The arsehole jim whitby <jim@afraid.org> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- jim whitby <jim@afraid.org> wrote:> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 00:47:28 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> > Content-Language: en-US > From: jim whitby <jim@afraid.org> > In-Reply-To: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Message-ID: <nnd$771d530f$4d688355@8292a2b4ecdeb729> > Organization: XSUsenet > Path: not-for-mail > Lines: 36 > Injection-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 06:47:28 +0100 > Injection-Info: reader.xsusenet.com; mail-complaints-to="abuse@xsusenet.com" > X-Received-Bytes: 2404
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 7:42:40 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:05:11 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: > >On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 6:53:42?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote: > > > >> I used to work with a fire alarm company in Freehold, New Jersey. They > >> had a sign on the wall > >> > >> IN CASE OF FIRE > >> RUN, YELL "FIRE" > > > >Propane burns VERY HOT, something like 4,000oF. Just being near it will burn you to death. When those big gas pipelines go up, they burn to a crisp everything within 500 ft. It must be extinguished from a distance. An empty propane tank really shouldn't burn at all. > Freehold wouldn't be a great loss to the world.You can say that again. They're majority Republican and have voted 10 point leads for every Republican nutjob presidential candidate for the last 25 years. Most of them are probably planning to vote for Trump.
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
On 12/15/2023 10:47 PM, jim whitby wrote:> On 12/15/23 18:24, Don Y wrote: >> I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a >> propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! >> "You have to take that around the back!" >> "I already did. No one answered the door." >> "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." >> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth >> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store >> policy) >> >> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are >> always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it >> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in* >> the store, regardless of duration. > <snip> > More info.... > > Virginian Fire code: > > 6109.15 LP-Gas Cylinder Exchange for Resale > In addition to other applicable requirements of this chapter, facilities > operating LP-gas cylinder exchange stations that are accessible to the public > shall comply with the following requirements. > > Cylinders shall be secured in a lockable, ventilated metal cabinet or > other approved enclosure. > Cylinders shall be accessible only by authorized personnel or by use of an > automated exchange system in accordance with Section 6109.15.1. > A sign shall be posted on the entry door of the business operating the > cylinder exchange stating "DO NOT BRING LP-GAS CYLINDERS INTO THE BUILDING" or > similar approved wording. > An emergency contact information sign shall be posted within 10 feet (3048 > mm) of the cylinder storage cabinet. The content, lettering, size, color and > location of the required sign shall be as required by the fire code official.So, would you ASSUME this puts the onus on the "facility" to enforce the requirement? I.e., the guy (in my example) who walked *through* the hardware store, cussing the staff, carrying the tank to the back of the store is not "at fault" (legally) for his "noncompliance". Rather, if "someone of authority" happened to witness the event, the "facility" would be cited for a violation for failing to prevent the guy from walking through the store, as such? I.e., an underage customer purchasing tobacco would result in the proprietor being cited, not the "customer"... If this is the case, then it poses an interesting dilemma for the business owner: if you're a hardass with the customer who is "misbehaving", you protect yourself legally -- at the risk of pissing off the customer! [In my example, the customer walked all the way to the rear of the store, encountered some other staff (besides the cashier who had told him he couldn't come in with the tank), "had words"... Then, *that* staff member came back to the front of the store, tank in HIS hand, to set the tank outside the front door. I.e., as if the customer had never caused the violation. Some time later -- after more "words" -- the customer left the building... leaving his tank /where the employee had left it/. The employee returned to pick up the tank and carry it around to the back of the building -- as expected. (one has to wonder if the employee would have taken a shortcut through the store had the customer's actions not drawn so much attention to the event!) Too funny!]
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:> There is a difference. > > If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn > very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be)... until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.> On the other hand, a > bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen that is indeed explosive. > > My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks were > more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and air, > they could explode.When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much propane is present. If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never have had ANY gas consumed. Or, it may be bone dry. Or, empty *enough* that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 00:47:28 -0500, jim whitby <jim@afraid.org> wrote:>On 12/15/23 18:24, Don Y wrote: >> I was at the hardware store, today.� A guy walked in with a >> propane tank from a BBQ grill.� The staff went ballistic! >> �� "You have to take that around the back!" >> �� "I already did.� No one answered the door." >> �� "You can't carry it through the store.� It's *illegal*..." >> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth >> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store >> policy) >> >> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are >> always stored outside due to convenience and safety.� So, it >> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in* >> the store, regardless of duration. ><snip> >More info.... > >Virginian Fire code: > >6109.15 LP-Gas Cylinder Exchange for Resale >In addition to other applicable requirements of this chapter, facilities >operating LP-gas cylinder exchange stations that are accessible to the >public shall comply with the following requirements. > > Cylinders shall be secured in a lockable, ventilated metal cabinet >or other approved enclosure. > Cylinders shall be accessible only by authorized personnel or by >use of an automated exchange system in accordance with Section 6109.15.1. > A sign shall be posted on the entry door of the business operating >the cylinder exchange stating "DO NOT BRING LP-GAS CYLINDERS INTO THE >BUILDING" or similar approved wording. > An emergency contact information sign shall be posted within 10 >feet (3048 mm) of the cylinder storage cabinet. The content, lettering, >size, color and location of the required sign shall be as required by >the fire code official.We have a similar regulation in Mass. And don't forget the Insurance Company. After your business vanishes in a big explosion, your friendly Insurance Agent is suddenly unfriendly. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
On 2023-12-16, Don Y wrote:> [...] > So, would you ASSUME this puts the onus on the "facility" to enforce > the requirement? I.e., the guy (in my example) who walked *through* > the hardware store, cussing the staff, carrying the tank to the back > of the store is not "at fault" (legally) for his "noncompliance". > Rather, if "someone of authority" happened to witness the event, > the "facility" would be cited for a violation for failing to > prevent the guy from walking through the store, as such?Depends on how the fire marshal feels that day; there do tend to be different options they have in that regard.> I.e., an underage customer purchasing tobacco would result in > the proprietor being cited, not the "customer"...Well, both. Different citations, though. ("Sale to a minor" and "Minor in possession of...")> If this is the case, then it poses an interesting dilemma for > the business owner: if you're a hardass with the customer who > is "misbehaving", you protect yourself legally -- at the risk > of pissing off the customer!Better to "lose" one moron semi-customer than the store.> > [In my example, the customer walked all the way to the rear of the store, > encountered some other staff (besides the cashier who had told him he > couldn't come in with the tank), "had words"... > > Then, *that* staff member came back to the front of the store, tank > in HIS hand, to set the tank outside the front door. I.e., as if > the customer had never caused the violation.Tank has to get *out* of the store somehow; and if the "customer" is being a petulant little brat about it, then it's most likely gonna be a store employee getting it out ...> Some time later -- after more "words" -- the customer left the > building... leaving his tank /where the employee had left it/. > The employee returned to pick up the tank and carry it around > to the back of the building -- as expected. (one has to wonder > if the employee would have taken a shortcut through the store > had the customer's actions not drawn so much attention to the event!)If it was the smaller places around here (True-Value affiliates), the employee would probably be fired on the spot (or at least we would've been back when I was a kid working at one...) -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
Reply by ●December 16, 20232023-12-16
On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote:> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> There is a difference. >> >> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen >> to burn very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be). > > .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with > fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.Woshhhh! :-) Big flame or explosion. You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not explode? :-) There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is not met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode. You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in gasoline doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour before trying again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it, then turn the key, so that it ventilated. After a while you could try to start it for real.> >> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and >> oxygen that is indeed explosive. >> >> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel >> tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture >> of fuel and air, they could explode. > > When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much > propane is present. If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never > have had ANY gas consumed. Or, it may be bone dry. Or, empty *enough* > that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through > a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one spare. If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch the bottle, which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a quick disconnect/connect device :-) Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure. Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way just in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden to switch the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-) Yeah, BTDT. -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
The arsehole Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:29:14 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 22 > Message-ID: <ull4rl$2icrk$3@dont-email.me> > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > <o1bv4k-m4sv.ln1@coop.radagast.org> <b5k05kxpkd.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 21:29:25 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="8e19cd6225f636e4755ad2df2de13561"; > logging-data="2700148"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19QLNa7U0sVVyCqmSDuha8/" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:qyzElpTlIreQKb/xOp+crFX5TH8= > Content-Language: en-US > In-Reply-To: <b5k05kxpkd.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > X-Received-Bytes: 2283
