The arsehole "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 04:39:59 +0100 > Lines: 55 > Message-ID: <f5725kxcme.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > <o1bv4k-m4sv.ln1@coop.radagast.org> <b5k05kxpkd.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > <ull4rl$2icrk$3@dont-email.me> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-Trace: individual.net Mbc5/jSH+7UpAWdFIZ2Ojg/N6qc5gfBlm20Tb2cGISYv/ViTGK > X-Orig-Path: Telcontar.valinor!not-for-mail > Cancel-Lock: sha1:y7+fuhnIIGB7lwXwXiY+OWLGQ40= sha256:15mprf83xhpysMWWkJ+4/89MnUmJzL1BuMzqMCmR6GA= > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Content-Language: es-ES, en-CA > In-Reply-To: <ull4rl$2icrk$3@dont-email.me> > X-Received-Bytes: 3222
OT: (consumer) propane tanks
Started by ●December 15, 2023
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
The idiot Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:25:53 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 69 > Message-ID: <ull4lc$2icrk$2@dont-email.me> > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> > <nnd$771d530f$4d688355@8292a2b4ecdeb729> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Injection-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 21:26:05 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="8e19cd6225f636e4755ad2df2de13561"; > logging-data="2700148"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18SaFtF8zBBKsZNlDEn0RDm" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:kfYxoLBEo6r0Yjmx98nkhK8KWJw= > In-Reply-To: <nnd$771d530f$4d688355@8292a2b4ecdeb729> > Content-Language: en-US > X-Received-Bytes: 4587
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
The arsehole Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 01:54:48 -0000 (UTC) > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 56 > Message-ID: <slrnunslai.hsj.dan@djph.net> > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> > <nnd$771d530f$4d688355@8292a2b4ecdeb729> <ull4lc$2icrk$2@dont-email.me> > Injection-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 01:54:48 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="129095dfdd079bfb725dfe147924cadc"; > logging-data="2768909"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/3LGjDaXA+EjSlZo+vLPQuc858E4Jhddc=" > User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Linux) > Cancel-Lock: sha1:S8QSoU7pDKMyKvT9qajR+CpxTqI= > X-Received-Bytes: 3366
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
The arsehole Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:35:26 +0000 > From: Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:35:26 -0500 > Message-ID: <qd9snihcc98evkgqg5k5sqs6p35dc7c9v4@4ax.com> > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> <nnd$771d530f$4d688355@8292a2b4ecdeb729> > User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Lines: 45 > X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com > X-Trace: sv3-0t8t7w6SrNAOp6WfT7epZ8eepyqgJrS+3cmS8mxNm8l8U5YPxRTGMiyrIBCLwy0h8lFWGBC3lJpIKf/!nq1jh/7GrDKztO6tUOFjFIR5zPxcrsaRt90R7MM0Uu0/CCu6y+aKCoos+0lZGUAh7bIzdbc= > X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com > X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html > X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers > X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly > X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 > Bytes: 3049 > X-Received-Bytes: 3187
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 04:39:59 +0100, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:>On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote: >> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> There is a difference. >>> >>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen >>> to burn very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be). >> >> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with >> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch. > >Woshhhh! :-) Big flame or explosion. > > >You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not >explode? :-) > >There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is >not met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode. > >You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in >gasoline doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour >before trying again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it, >then turn the key, so that it ventilated. After a while you could try to >start it for real. > >> >>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and >>> oxygen that is indeed explosive. >>> >>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel >>> tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture >>> of fuel and air, they could explode. >> >> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much >> propane is present.� If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never >> have had ANY gas consumed.� Or, it may be bone dry.� Or, empty *enough* >> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through >> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted. > >Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one >spare. If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch >the bottle, which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a >quick disconnect/connect device :-) > >Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure. > >Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way >just in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden >to switch the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-) > >Yeah, BTDT.Water failure mid-shower is a terrifying thought.
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
On 12/16/2023 8:39 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:> On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote: >> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> There is a difference. >>> >>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn >>> very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be). >> >> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with >> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch. > > Woshhhh! :-) Big flame or explosion. > > You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not explode? :-)Yes -- but "adding air" to a room is a relatively common occurrence... done without deliberate consideration!> There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is not > met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode. > > You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in gasoline > doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour before trying > again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it, then turn the key, so > that it ventilated. After a while you could try to start it for real.Yes. The idiots who'd pump the pedal endlessly thinking it would *help* things... I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or ignition... :>>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen >>> that is indeed explosive. >>> >>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks >>> were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and >>> air, they could explode. >> >> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much >> propane is present. If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never >> have had ANY gas consumed. Or, it may be bone dry. Or, empty *enough* >> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through >> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted. > > Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one spare. > If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch the bottle, > which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a quick > disconnect/connect device :-) > > Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?)> Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way just > in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden to switch > the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-) > > Yeah, BTDT.Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water. The supply was quite limited. And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of laundry, etc. It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities". Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm. ENDLESS supplies of hot water!
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
On 12/16/2023 6:54 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:> On 2023-12-16, Don Y wrote: >> [...] >> So, would you ASSUME this puts the onus on the "facility" to enforce >> the requirement? I.e., the guy (in my example) who walked *through* >> the hardware store, cussing the staff, carrying the tank to the back >> of the store is not "at fault" (legally) for his "noncompliance". >> Rather, if "someone of authority" happened to witness the event, >> the "facility" would be cited for a violation for failing to >> prevent the guy from walking through the store, as such? > > Depends on how the fire marshal feels that day; there do tend to be > different options they have in that regard.The point being that the *customer* wouldn't be cited.>> I.e., an underage customer purchasing tobacco would result in >> the proprietor being cited, not the "customer"... > > Well, both. Different citations, though. ("Sale to a minor" and "Minor > in possession of...")When I was a kid, smoking was legal at 16. So, 15 years and younger to be "in possession of". NO ONE was ever thus cited. Worse case, a cop would drive you home and "tattle" to your folks. [Or, given the size of the town, word would get to them through the grapevine, eventually]>> If this is the case, then it poses an interesting dilemma for >> the business owner: if you're a hardass with the customer who >> is "misbehaving", you protect yourself legally -- at the risk >> of pissing off the customer! > > Better to "lose" one moron semi-customer than the store.But there are different ways to handle a "customer complaint". The fact that the store employee took the tank and walked it back out to the FRONT of the store, depositing it there, likely had a more negative impact on the customer than if he had ACCEPTED the tank, refilled it and (politely) LECTURED the customer as to WHY his action was objectionable. There are hardware stores (and places to refill propane tanks) every mile or so, here, making it really easy for a customer to decide to take his business (propane and otherwise) elsewhere.>> [In my example, the customer walked all the way to the rear of the store, >> encountered some other staff (besides the cashier who had told him he >> couldn't come in with the tank), "had words"... >> >> Then, *that* staff member came back to the front of the store, tank >> in HIS hand, to set the tank outside the front door. I.e., as if >> the customer had never caused the violation. > > Tank has to get *out* of the store somehow; and if the "customer" is > being a petulant little brat about it, then it's most likely gonna be a > store employee getting it out ...Store employee could have just walked it out the BACK door which was imediately adjacent to his location. I'm sure that's how the customer saw it, too. In the customer's mind, he likely thought he'd a /fait accompli/ (who the hell would carry the tank back out the FRONT door when the BACK door -- that he was supposed to use -- was just 3 ft away?) So, the customer likely saw the employee's actions as that of a ball-buster.>> Some time later -- after more "words" -- the customer left the >> building... leaving his tank /where the employee had left it/. >> The employee returned to pick up the tank and carry it around >> to the back of the building -- as expected. (one has to wonder >> if the employee would have taken a shortcut through the store >> had the customer's actions not drawn so much attention to the event!) > > If it was the smaller places around here (True-Value affiliates), the > employee would probably be fired on the spot (or at least we would've > been back when I was a kid working at one...)
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 11:56:58 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:>On 12/16/2023 8:39 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote: >>> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> There is a difference. >>>> >>>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn >>>> very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be). >>> >>> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with >>> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch. >> >> Woshhhh!� :-)� Big flame or explosion. >> >> You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not explode? :-) > >Yes -- but "adding air" to a room is a relatively common occurrence... >done without deliberate consideration! > >> There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is not >> met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode. >> >> You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in gasoline >> doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour before trying >> again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it, then turn the key, so >> that it ventilated. After a while you could try to start it for real. > >Yes. The idiots who'd pump the pedal endlessly thinking it would >*help* things... > >I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of >my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or ignition... :> > >>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen >>>> that is indeed explosive. >>>> >>>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks >>>> were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and >>>> air, they could explode. >>> >>> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much >>> propane is present.� If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never >>> have had ANY gas consumed.� Or, it may be bone dry.� Or, empty *enough* >>> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through >>> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted. >> >> Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one spare. >> If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch the bottle, >> which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a quick >> disconnect/connect device :-) >> >> Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure. > >I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only >have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?) >So that when one runs out, you don't ruin the salmon and steaks. And so that you don't have to drive to the refill place so often.>> Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way just >> in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden to switch >> the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-) >> >> Yeah, BTDT. > >Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water. The supply was quite limited. >And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of >laundry, etc. It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower >before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities". > >Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm. ENDLESS >supplies of hot water! >We have 80 gal NG-fired water heaters at our house and cabin. Lots of nice hot water.
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
On 12/15/2023 7:42 PM, ehsjr wrote:> On 12/15/2023 6:24 PM, Don Y wrote: > <snip> >> >> [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor >> what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine >> and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected >> some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc. >> >> He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire >> department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When >> they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!" >> >> I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?] > > The problem is that propane gas is heavier than air, > so it doesn't readily dissipate like natural gas would.Possibly. But, we operated the truck outdoors so less likely for it to "pool" anywhere. I think the fear is a hose melting leading to uncontrolled flame... leading to tank heating... leading to explosion. In an enclosed space, there might be a different failure mode. I'd feel much safer on an electric truck but they are more of a (daily) maintenance issue (important when you can't count on having staff available every day).>> So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local >> requirement or just "store policy"? >> > > Dunno. > Ed
Reply by ●December 17, 20232023-12-17
On 2023-12-17 19:56, Don Y wrote:> On 12/16/2023 8:39 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote: >>> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:....>> You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in >> gasoline doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour >> before trying again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving >> it, then turn the key, so that it ventilated. After a while you could >> try to start it for real. > > Yes. The idiots who'd pump the pedal endlessly thinking it would > *help* things... > > I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of > my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or > ignition... :>What was that? :-?> >>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and >>>> oxygen that is indeed explosive. >>>> >>>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel >>>> tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a >>>> mixture of fuel and air, they could explode. >>> >>> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how >>> much >>> propane is present. If it developed a fault with the valve, it may >>> never >>> have had ANY gas consumed. Or, it may be bone dry. Or, empty *enough* >>> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway >>> through >>> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted. >> >> Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one >> spare. If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just >> switch the bottle, which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. >> We have a quick disconnect/connect device :-) >> >> Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure. > > I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only > have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?)Quite possibly.> >> Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives >> way just in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the >> garden to switch the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-) >> >> Yeah, BTDT. > > Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water. The supply was quite > limited. > And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of > laundry, etc. It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower > before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities".Oh, yes! Some modern water flash heaters have automatic regulation. They increase or decrease the gas output automatically to try keep the water temperature constant. I don't have that in this place. I did a mistake when I purchased the last one when replacing the previous (broken) one. It is not only the problem of someone using the water at the same time, but that the temp varies a lot if you try to use less water.> > Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm. ENDLESS > supplies of hot water!:-) -- Cheers, Carlos.
