I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a
propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic!
"You have to take that around the back!"
"I already did. No one answered the door."
"You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..."
which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
policy)
Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it
*may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
the store, regardless of duration.
[I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected
some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire
department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When
they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]
So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
requirement or just "store policy"?
OT: (consumer) propane tanks
Started by ●December 15, 2023
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:24:52 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:>I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a >propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! > "You have to take that around the back!" > "I already did. No one answered the door." > "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." >which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth >or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store >policy) > >Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are >always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it >*may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in* >the store, regardless of duration. > >[I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor >what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine >and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected >some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc. > >He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire >department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When >they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!" > >I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?] > >So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local >requirement or just "store policy"?I used to work with a fire alarm company in Freehold, New Jersey. They had a sign on the wall IN CASE OF FIRE RUN, YELL "FIRE"
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 6:53:42 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:> I used to work with a fire alarm company in Freehold, New Jersey. They > had a sign on the wall > > IN CASE OF FIRE > RUN, YELL "FIRE"Propane burns VERY HOT, something like 4,000oF. Just being near it will burn you to death. When those big gas pipelines go up, they burn to a crisp everything within 500 ft. It must be extinguished from a distance. An empty propane tank really shouldn't burn at all.
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:05:11 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:>On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 6:53:42?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote: > >> I used to work with a fire alarm company in Freehold, New Jersey. They >> had a sign on the wall >> >> IN CASE OF FIRE >> RUN, YELL "FIRE" > >Propane burns VERY HOT, something like 4,000oF. Just being near it will burn you to death. When those big gas pipelines go up, they burn to a crisp everything within 500 ft. It must be extinguished from a distance. An empty propane tank really shouldn't burn at all.Freehold wouldn't be a great loss to the world.
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:> I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a > propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! > "You have to take that around the back!" > "I already did. No one answered the door." > "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." > which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth > or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store > policy) > > Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are > always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it > *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in* > the store, regardless of duration. > > [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor > what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine > and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected > some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc. > > He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire > department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When > they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!" > > I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?] > > So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local > requirement or just "store policy"?I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much. Where I live, propane containers are rare; butane containers are much more "popular". So I'm not familiar with them. I heard they are more common in colder climates (because butane doesn't gasify that easily when cold). -- Cheers, Carlos.
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:> I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a > propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! > "You have to take that around the back!" > "I already did. No one answered the door." > "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." > which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth > or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store > policy)It looks to me as if this situation is covered by Code 58 of the National Fire Prevention Association code (which is probably incorporated "by reference" into most local codes). "In NFPA 58, buildings frequented by the public are limited to cylinders with a propane capacity of 1 pound. The total quantity stored is limited to 200 pounds of propane. Buildings not frequented by the public are limited to a maximum quantity of 300 pounds of propane. The cylinder size is not restricted" In article <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:>I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that >is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.Yup. It's a double-acting bomb. The first boom is when the cylinder ruptures from overpressure. It's like any metal tank exploding - it could throw metal shrapnel for quite some distance. If the valve fails before the cylinder wall does, it can turn the cylinder into a jet-propelled projectile. The second boom is when the propane (or butane or etc.) mixes with the air sufficiently and then flashes into flame. It becomes a fuel/air bomb, which does damage both by the force of the explosion, and by the huge amount of heat released by a large flame-front. One of the big hazards of storing fuel-gas indoors is that effect #2 can happen as a result of any leak from the storage cylinder. It doesn't take an external fire or flame. A leaking valve, or a big cylinder which falls over and damages or breaks off the valve assembly, can convert a building into a time-bomb in very short order. Any spark then sets off the explosion... flipping a wall light switch on or off can be all it takes. Demolished buildings are the result. Youtube has plenty of clips - for example see https://youtu.be/BUJPvoped2M?si=PYlIBIbX6tFn6xY3
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 12:06:49 PM UTC+11, Carlos E.R. wrote:> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote: > > I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a > > propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! > > "You have to take that around the back!" > > "I already did. No one answered the door." > > "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." > > which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth > > or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store > > policy) > > > > Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are > > always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it > > *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in* > > the store, regardless of duration. > > > > [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor > > what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine > > and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected > > some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc. > > > > He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire > > department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When > > they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!" > > > > I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?] > > > > So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local > > requirement or just "store policy"? > I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that > is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much. > > > Where I live, propane containers are rare; butane containers are much > more "popular". So I'm not familiar with them. I heard they are more > common in colder climates (because butane doesn't gasify that easily > when cold).The boiling point of propane is -42C, of butane -1C (so it gasifies very slightly more easily than water). The process takes heat. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On 12/15/2023 6:04 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote: >> I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a >> propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! >> "You have to take that around the back!" >> "I already did. No one answered the door." >> "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." >> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth >> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store >> policy) >> >> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are >> always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it >> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in* >> the store, regardless of duration. >> >> [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor >> what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine >> and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected >> some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc. >> >> He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire >> department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When >> they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!" >> >> I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?] >> >> So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local >> requirement or just "store policy"? > > I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that is a big > problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.I think it's more than just being exposed to fire. Tanks can leak. Customers can fail to completely close the valve. Tanks can degrade over time (who knows how long the customer had it and how he cared for it). In the forklift scenario, there are other components involved (hoses, connections, engine, etc.)> Where I live, propane containers are rare; butane containers are much more > "popular". So I'm not familiar with them. I heard they are more common in > colder climates (because butane doesn't gasify that easily when cold).I know some folks heat with propane on this side of the pond -- likely places where natural gas isn't available via "neighborhood pipeline". (I think my sister used it at one of her homes). Some businesses will refill these small (BBQ) propane tanks from a large tank on the premises. Others apparently outsource that to some other firm that swaps out the collected empties for newly-filled containers. But, in each of these cases, it seems like the transaction occurs outdoors. I just don't know if that is mandated by law or just done out of an abundance of caution. (Imagine an indoor supply developing a leak over a weekend when the store is "closed up tight" and fresh air and an ignition source introduced...)
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
On 12/15/2023 6:27 PM, Dave Platt wrote:> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote: >> I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a >> propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic! >> "You have to take that around the back!" >> "I already did. No one answered the door." >> "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..." >> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth >> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store >> policy) > > It looks to me as if this situation is covered by Code 58 of the > National Fire Prevention Association code (which is probably > incorporated "by reference" into most local codes). > > "In NFPA 58, buildings frequented by the public are limited to > cylinders with a propane capacity of 1 pound.OK. That would explain how small propane tanks (for torches) are tolerated. And, apparently limit the NUMBER of them that can be on shelves for purchase. But, that seems to apply to the owner/operator of the building. How does it extend to "guests/customers entering the facility"? Esp as the state of the tank (contents) is indeterminate.> The total quantity > stored is limited to 200 pounds of propane. Buildings not frequented > by the public are limited to a maximum quantity of 300 pounds of > propane. The cylinder size is not restricted"
Reply by ●December 15, 20232023-12-15
The arsehole Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:> X-Received: by 2002:ad4:59c3:0:b0:67e:e8e5:1d8f with SMTP id el3-20020ad459c3000000b0067ee8e51d8fmr82150qvb.9.1702691035335; > Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:43:55 -0800 (PST) > X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:a81:b0:5df:4a9b:fb6c with SMTP id > ci1-20020a05690c0a8100b005df4a9bfb6cmr294780ywb.3.1702691035047; Fri, 15 Dec > 2023 17:43:55 -0800 (PST) > Path: not-for-mail > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:43:54 -0800 (PST) > In-Reply-To: <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=59.102.83.245; posting-account=SJ46pgoAAABuUDuHc5uDiXN30ATE-zi- > NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.102.83.245 > References: <ulin8d$23inh$1@dont-email.me> <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> > User-Agent: G2/1.0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Message-ID: <3f8bba19-e3c7-4997-8efb-20c4bb15c784n@googlegroups.com> > Subject: Re: OT: (consumer) propane tanks > From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> > Injection-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 01:43:55 +0000 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > X-Received-Bytes: 3364
