cheap usb ("thumb") drives

On 11/30/2023 2:02 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 29/11/2023 19:22, Don Y wrote:
>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>
>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>
>> I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
>> in lieu of the backup partition.
>>
>> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
>>     (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image)  I've
>>     encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>     of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>     or mechanical failure)
> 
> <https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001617.htm>
> 
> If you've got something "mission critical" 

I wouldn't characterize it as thus.  At the end of the day, the
client can always bring the laptop back and we can reload *its*
image from the server (I archive images "by serial number")

But, it adds to our cost (time) -- and their inconvenience.

> it might be best to avoid a cheap 
> drive. If you buy a cheap 32GB drive, perhaps it's a "failed" 64GB drive. Is 
> the 32GB you've got left reliable?

There's that.

But, there are two ways of looking at that issue.

If you're needs are "small", you can argue that lots of fall-out
parts (even including GOOD parts) can address those needs.  So,
a manufacturer selling something as a 16G drive that may have
wanted to be a 64G drive is reasonable (or, abandon that market
entirely).

OTOH, if the manufacturer is (likely) trying to chase the bigger
devices market, is he more inclined to let some devices slip
through that, strictly speaking, won't be quite as good as they
should?

On 30/11/2023 14:32, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/30/2023 2:02 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

> OTOH, if the manufacturer is (likely) trying to chase the bigger
> devices market, is he more inclined to let some devices slip
> through that, strictly speaking, won't be quite as good as they
> should?

I guess it depends on how much you value your reputation.

-- 

Jeff

On 11/30/2023 7:30 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>>>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
>>>>
>>>> It might be.
>>>
>>> Yeah, "might".
>>>
>>> Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
>>> selling refurbished machines.  So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not
>>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
>>> reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
>>
>> Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
>> screw over his customers?  "Not my problem!"
> 
> How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange
> of money for services rendered?  It's not like "hey Don, I tried
> installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be
> fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for
> refurbished machines.

[Have you missed the point that our "customers" don't EXCHANGE MONEY
for the products?  Will they exchange the same non-money for that
repair??]

And, where do you draw the line between sticking to the "letter"
of a sales agreement -- at the expense of developing a bad
reputation among ALL your customers?

I offer lifetime bug-fixes on my designs.  This tells the client:
he's confident in his design AND our costs will be limited to
what he's quoted.  Someone else might nickel-and-dime their
clients claiming "X wasn't part of the initial design/bid".

Costco has a "satisfaction guaranteed" policy.  How much product
do you think they *eat* to BUY the goodwill that this instills
in their customers?  Surely, they could say, "Hey, you bought
it.  All sales final!"  Or, "Returns only allowed for defective
merchandise and our SOLE remedy will be to replace the defective item"?

Not only does their policy have these obvious consequences but,
also, second-order effects.

E.g., if an item goes on sale soon after you purchased it at
regular price, you could opt to return it, for a refund.  And,
turn right around and repurchase it (a *fresh* unit) for the
sale price.

Some stores will credit you the current SALE price for such returns
in an obvious attempt to discourage this sort of practice.

Costco's solution is to allow you to claim the difference in price
as a partial refund, KEEPING the original item.  Given their
satisfaction guarantee and its (above) consequences, this actually
is a better option for them.

But, there are also THIRD order effects:  if you know/suspect an
item WILL be going on sale, you can purchase early (while the
item is still in stock at the nondiscounted price) knowing that
you can either:
- claim the difference in prices as a partial refund
- return the item if you don't want to pay full price.

The point of all this is that customers LEARN these consequences
and make purchase decisions -- including WHERE to shop -- based
on them.

>> Do you take the same attitude with your *designs*:  "*I* hae
>> been paid so any problems henceforth are the client's!"
> 
> When the problem is "hey Dan, so I erased the EEPROM on your board, and
> now it doesn't work!" ... yeah, Not My Problem. I didn't ship the
> product with any interface to that 256-bit EEPROM with my
> super-secret-go-code ("12345" ;) ).

*I*, OTOH, would offer to help the customer, treating that effort
as an attempt to build goodwill that could turn into future sales
(or referrals).

I have customers call because they've misplaced a deliverable...
YEARS after the contract was finished.  I could legally and morally
say, "Gee, sorry, I fulfilled ALL of my obligations under the
contract.  You should have taken better care of those key items!".
There's no way for the client to KNOW that I have (or don't have)
a copy of those deliverables.  Or, if I have them, how costly it
will be for me to retrieve them and redeliver them.  *But*,
helping him out of his SELF-INFLICTED (whether it was by accident
or design) bind only improves his impression of me as a SUPPLIER
OF SERVICES.

"Dear Costco.  I opened this $20 bag of protein drink and think it
tastes like shit!  Please give me a full refund, even though I've
consumed some of it AND the balance is not resellable!"

> When the problem is "Hey Dan, so I hooked your thing up like the example
> said, but pin X2 isn't working", well either
> 
>    1. I made an error in the design (or example) OR
>    2. The user messed up in a recoverable way ("Oh, you plugged the LED
>        into pin X1") OR
>    3. The user messed up in a partially-recoverable way ("Oh, you forgot
>        the resistor on the LED, it burned out. Get a new LED from the
>        bin") OR
>    3. The user messed up in a completely non-recoverable way ("You tried
>        to drive a motor directly from the I/O pins?? Board's dead.")

I contend that it is good policy to fix the customer;s problem regardless
of "fault".  customers who abuse your good will can be discouraged from
continuing that practice easily enough:  "Gee, sorry to hear you've
got this problem.  I'll try to get to it sometime next MONTH..." (No,
I'm not going to drop everything to deal with your LATEST screwup)

>>> Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
>>> kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")
>>
>> It was my second post -- first response.
>>
>> And, again, why would you ever think it's NOT a supplier's
>> problem to ensure he supplies a quality product?
> 
> There's a VAST difference between someone designing / selling a product
> that doesn't live up to the measure of "quality" and the idea
> that a vendor is somehow "still responsible" when ownership changes
> hands.

You miss the point.  "Responsibility" is a legally defined thing.
I'm never responsible for your mistakes.

OTOH, how I address your calls for assistance will have an impact
on your future choice of suppliers IN A MARKET WHERE A CLEAR
MONOPOLY DOES NOT EXIST.

My clients may be annoyed/disappointed that I moved on to other
projects instead of tackling THEIR "sequel".  But, that's my
perogative (and they didn't commit to a retainer, etc.).  But,
they never claim I shirked my responsibility or "got all
technical" about the terms of the contract, etc.

How many of the folks who stick to the letter of an agreement
in the face of unforeseen needs do YOU intentionally rely on?

>> No, it's not the school's property.  These are just individuals
>> (underprivileged youth who can't afford to BUY a computer;
>> does that mean they can be screwed over because they haven't
>> made any cash outlay?) being serviced by a non-profit.
> 
> AH HAH!  A non-profit.  That explains so much.
> 
>> Just as if they'd PURCHASED a machine, from a store, they would expect
>> to return to that store (for support) if they had a problem.
> 
> Indeed, and that support tends to cost money.

And support from a non-profit also has costs.

A building still has to be lighted, heated, insured, etc.
Volunteers have to be available and willing to undertake
the chores that need to be addressed.

"Free" labor... isn't.  (because free implies it is in
limitless quantities)

>> In the past, we have been too generous with our (volunteer) time
>> in trying to restore machines that had been grossly misused;
>> investing hours to recover files from horribly infected/corrupted
>> disks.  (should we also have just said "not our problem"?  How
>> does that serve those youth?)
> 
> If these "underpriveleged kids" are involved with your nonprofit as some
> kind of "care" program (either via school aftercare, or some other
> community outreach thingy via the local community center, etc) ... then
> they are not really "customers" are they; but rather "users" of
> computers that your nonprofit loans out.

No.  We *gift* them to the kids.  Businesses donate their surplus
kit to us.  We repair, refurbish and reuse (by distributing it to
others).  It is theirs to do with as they see fit -- which can
include selling it!

[Of course, come back for a *second* one and you may be surprised to
see that your request has been denied.  Ooops!]

But, sadly, people tend not to place value on things that didn't
"cost" anything.  (This is also true of nonprofits and their
attitudes towards volunteer hours!)  So, we have started trying
to extract a pound of flesh for each such "gift" -- give us
4 hours of your time in exchange for the laptop.

[Yeah, even if you know nothing about computers, you can sit
and untangle power cords and wrap them up, neatly, so I can
work on other things]

> In which case, it sounds like you need better rules around what they can
> do with your equipment, and what the consequences of asking for help
> after they get viruses or fail at installing Linux, etc.

Their lives are already complicated.  You KNOW where you are going to
sleep, tonight.  And, where your next meal is coming from.  They
don't have those assurances.

I would *love* for them to tinker (e.g., install Linux) as it's a
cheap learning experience.

But, going to porn sites and getting malware on your machine doesn't
feel like the same sort of joy, on my part.  Yet, I'm not a policeman.
All I can do is adopt policies that minimize *my* (our) costs.  You
wanna sell your laptop?  Fine.  Sad, but fine.  But, I'm not going
to invest more of my time building *another* one for you to sell!

>>> Well sure.  But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
>>> just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter"
>>> branded ones)
>>
>> For our market, it wouldn't matter.  Do we get all holier-than-thou and
>> tell the (underprivileged youth) client that he's not taken good enough
>> care of his computer so we aren't going to help him?
> 
> Well, if they broke the USB connector clear off their USB stick, there's
> kind of "literally nothing you can do" at that point.

I have a friend who is responsible for a datacenter at a large multinational
bank.  He once toasted a disk drive by plugging the power connector in
backwards.  I commented:   "That's not possible! (plugging the connector
in backwards)  It won't fit!"   His reply:  "Yeah, it noticed it was really
hard getting it *in*..."

> My other comment about "it fell apart" is more looking at those super
> chintzy ones that sometimes live in boxes at convenience-store checkout
> counters.  I'm pretty sure that bubble-packing on most products is
> sturdier plastic than the housing on those things.

I have no experience with "cheap thumb drives" -- hence the post.
I've always tended to buy sandisk and from normal retailers
(not "we-sandisk-company, chop-chop!").  A quick search on amazon
turns up all sorts of names I've never heard of -- with price points
all over the map!

Are their costs so much lower?  Vanity pricing for certain brands?
OR, is the quality an issue??

I was annoyed the first time I bought a drive and discovered the
activity LED had been elided to save a few micropennies.  But,
I can adjust my usage accordingly (assuming the indicator actually
reflected ongoing activity in the controller).

But, when I encountered some drives (sandisk) where the connector
shell (the METAL part) had been replaced with thin plastic... no,
you can keep those, thankyouverymuch!

>> What if he breaks the keyboard?  Screen?  Do we "charge" him
>> (underprivileged youth) for the repair?  (he couldn't afford to BUY
>> the machine but he *can* afford to pay for its repair?)
> 
> Yes.  The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your
> nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age).  I've seen
> some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of
> homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of
> chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc).

Remember, there is no monetary cost to the replacement; all of the
kit is donated.  So, it boils down to how you want to use the
(limited and not contractually bound!) volunteer resources
available AND the message you want to send to your clients.

I've been asked to repair keyboards that neighbors have spilled coffee
on/in.  Surely they weren't trying to be careless...

On 11/30/2023 7:40 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 14:32, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/30/2023 2:02 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:
> 
>> OTOH, if the manufacturer is (likely) trying to chase the bigger
>> devices market, is he more inclined to let some devices slip
>> through that, strictly speaking, won't be quite as good as they
>> should?
> 
> I guess it depends on how much you value your reputation.

And, if "you've never heard of the company", how likely do
you THINK they value their reputation?  <frown>

The idiot John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

> X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:7e3:b0:77d:8f12:b893 with SMTP id k3-20020a05620a07e300b0077d8f12b893mr457524qkk.13.1701348548743;
>         Thu, 30 Nov 2023 04:49:08 -0800 (PST)
> X-Received: by 2002:a63:2dc4:0:b0:5bd:d616:b903 with SMTP id
>  t187-20020a632dc4000000b005bdd616b903mr3394826pgt.0.1701348548367; Thu, 30
>  Nov 2023 04:49:08 -0800 (PST)
> Path: not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 04:49:07 -0800 (PST)
> In-Reply-To: <uk9udg$1boju$3@dont-email.me>
> Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8614:4dff:fee6:8a48;
>  posting-account=de11ZAoAAACBQRb2jWnaIkHYK2q9mRvs
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8614:4dff:fee6:8a48
> References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
>  <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me> <uk9udg$1boju$3@dont-email.me>
> User-Agent: G2/1.0
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Message-ID: <7054764f-b65c-4117-aacb-38ddae96ba01n@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
> From: John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com>
> Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:49:08 +0000
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> X-Received-Bytes: 5671

The arsehole Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:03:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 44
> Message-ID: <slrnumgr3q.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
>  <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me>
> Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:03:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bdc08d3977848adc40ee6d5c48a929ca";
> 	logging-data="1411235"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+MEqn+at8em3U5NADixfOBD38+q5EBvio="
> User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Linux)
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:oQ5xxs7pElie6ybTSr1DeqLfJzE=
> X-Received-Bytes: 2515

The idiot Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:53:36 +0000
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 41
> Message-ID: <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me>
> References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:53:47 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5853456a006443e18692dd0fb8c6a90d";
> 	logging-data="1409469"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19qzRonMkQQinPyGbVc8pcTwEu7/IxpoiaTlJwbXS8pYg=="
> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:bidKb0uvvjcG3d+mKUuUpGDJ4dA=
> In-Reply-To: <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> Content-Language: en-GB
> X-Received-Bytes: 2662

The idiot Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:30:37 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 132
> Message-ID: <slrnumh77j.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
>  <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumgr3q.v1f.dan@djph.net>
>  <uk9tii$1blcg$2@dont-email.me>
> Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:30:37 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bdc08d3977848adc40ee6d5c48a929ca";
> 	logging-data="1477262"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/ZzMy0oUtiXPRplCPl8rhSrZ3i+V09qMk="
> User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Linux)
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:ApmI/kOy3QECgefcoGBftup/eqQ=
> X-Received-Bytes: 6563

The arsehole albert@cherry.(none) (albert) persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
albert@cherry.(none) (albert) wrote:

> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
> From: albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
> Originator: albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
> Message-ID: <nnd$063a5a0c$3283d224@bd8d8ee2bb1753fe>
> Organization: KPN B.V.
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:47:05 +0100
> Path: not-for-mail
> Lines: 45
> Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:47:05 +0100
> Injection-Info: news.kpn.nl; mail-complaints-to="abuse@kpn.com"
> X-Received-Bytes: 2440

The idiot Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

-- 
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 05:01:14 -0700
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 117
> Message-ID: <uk9tii$1blcg$2@dont-email.me>
> References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>
>  <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumgr3q.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:01:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4e7ef51c610ba137e6aac80b361fc094";
> 	logging-data="1430928"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+Ir4AjLfYev2/Sz2+7iuUZ"
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
>  Thunderbird/102.2.2
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:OO01jnEu9Yve/W/xD11jAtXOe64=
> Content-Language: en-US
> In-Reply-To: <slrnumgr3q.v1f.dan@djph.net>
> X-Received-Bytes: 6333