On 12/1/2023 4:08 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 12:15, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
>>>
>>> It might be.
>>
>> If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you,
>> do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it?
>> How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a
>> product that was so EASILY mistreated?
>
> Depends on what you mean by easily.
You know, like accepting an offer to upgrade to Windows N+1?
(seems like it would qualify as an "easy" thing to do (read:
mistake to make) That being the thing that is hosing my restore
strategy.
> Few devices with spinning rust in can
> survive being dropped 3' onto a concrete floor, iPads and mobile phones are
> even more fragile. My old one had a bit missing from its "Indestructible"
> gorilla glass but still worked. My wife had someone drop an iPad destroying it
> beyond economic repair.
The issue boils down to how much you are willing to accommodate
"customers" that, LEGALLY, you are not obligated. If you want to
keep a customer, you tend to "eat" things that your lawyers might
tell you aren't necessary.
If you have lots of competition and can easily *lose* a customer,
then you likely "do them a favor" (esp if the favor only consumes
the intangible called "time" -- which nonprofits consider to
be "free").
Also, if your customer has no other recourse AND your purpose
for existing (nonprofit) is to cater to that need, then how do
you rationalize screwing them "on a technicality" (cuz that's
how THEY will see it -- and they are tuned into "their"
community of "other customers")
[This, BTW, is why abuses are so common; one guy discovers a
way to beat the system and word quickly spreads amongst his
"peers". It's also why you can't just implement things as
"policy" -- they will learn "Ask Debbie for a replacement,
she's a pushover! If you ask Barbara, you're screwed..."]
>> Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also,
>> refuse to do any further business with him?
>
> Potentially. We took to putting telltales into the shipping package after one
> damaged machine came back with clear evidence that it had stood upside down in
> 12" of salty water long enough for mild steel parts to go rusty. That pretty
> much clinched who was at fault (it was the sort of kit that is shipped in air
> floatation supports "this way up!").
>
> Most spectacular one to repair we ever had was when they dropped one from the
> cargo bay door of a 747. It was never the same again.
Again, non-profit world vs. "for profit".
We had a customer clone our control algorithms (PLC-based) to avoid
having to pay US for the PLC, etc. Do we stop doing business with
them (when there are only a dozen or so such customers, worldwide)?
No. What you do is NOT (significantly) discount the other bits of
kit that they have to buy from you so their overall costs (buying
the PLC from someone else) remain unchanged; you just shift the
margin into other items.
AND, you refuse to accept contracts to customize the control
software, going forward! I.e., you let THEM support themselves
(which is why they argued -- to their management -- that they
should take on the controls, internally. Now, they are at a
competitive disadvantage cuz you WILL take on customization
for other customers -- THEIR COMPETITORS!
>> When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product,
>> the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to
>> cut our ties to you...")
>
> Absolutely. I had a strict policy of no support for existing work until my
> bills were paid.
No, that's "when your customer doesn't give you monies THAT YOU ARE OWED".
Different from "when customer is not EXPECTED to give you monies".
> Some of the large companies I worked for as an employee and
> then later as a contractor would only pay their bigger bills when someone from
> the bailiffs turned up to take the fax machine away. I knew their systems and
> MO so I made damn sure that I got paid on time and in full.
I had a different approach: I simply wouldn't work for them, ever again.
And, as the LOCAL community of people on which they could draw for the services
I provided was small, it was easy to make sure other folks knew "I'd been
stiffed".
So, if THEY opted to work for said client, they would take steps to
ensure payment up front.
[I eventually settled on 1/3 up front -- which means YOU are at risk
for 1/3 the value of the contract, INITIALLY; then 1/3 at the halfway
point -- at which point, I had 50% effort invested but only been paid
for 33% so 33% of what I should expect to receive is at risk until
the second payment is made; then the final 1/3 at signoff. This
approach shifts the risk back and forth as well as limiting it's
magnitude. (I stopped doing T&M jobs long ago as I want control
over the extent of a project)]
>>>> Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
>>>> fail.
>>>
>>> That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break USB
>>> sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in the
>>> machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
>>>
>>> If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few reads if
>>> it is looked after.
>>
>> "Looked after" is a problem. The beauty of the restore partition was that
>> they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available. The thumb drive will
>> require them to keep it on hand... somewhere.
>
> Why not continue to use the partition method and keep this option as a backup.
> I suspect the USB stick will get reused though. You could perhaps make all the
> important files invisible to naive end users.
The restore partition was invisible except for a boot prompt/keystroke.
I hid the image in the HPA so the OS couldn't *normally* muck with it.
But, if the boot record got clobbered, then my custom bootstrap
would be toasted so there was no way to even invoke the process.
>> OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have
>> to bring the machine into the shop. On public transportation. Time that
>> they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational).
>>
>> I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate
>> their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup:
>>
>> "I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?"
>>
>> "OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you. What's
>> your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct
>> image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)? Oh, you don't have
>> that handy? Well, get back to us when you do..."
>
> I can see it could be complex if the installed based is inhomogenous.
Machines come to us from a variety of sources. Most often, a business
upgrading to some newer version of Windows *or* just upgrading hardware
(e.g., moving from desktops to diskless workstations).
So, any solution has to work with a "generic computer". E.g., I can't
count on the BIOS having support for a restore partition via a hotkey.
But, disk drives are present in all computers as is the NORMAL boot
mechanism. And, the HPA.
If this is now a problem, I can still resort to booting from a USB
drive (as most BIOSes support this -- though it may be necessary to
reconfigure boot settings in that particular bios).
>>> Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and kept cool and
>>> dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and nasty one croak on
>>> first use but it is rare.
>>>
>>> Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!
>>
>> Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE).
>> So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge. Our GOAL
>> isn't to make their life any harder. OTOH, *they* should assume responsibility
>> for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that
>> we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility.
>>
>> We used to give out SFF desktop machines. But, that was limited to
>> kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine!
>>
>> And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed,
>> the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move".
>
> I find it hard to work out what to do for the best under these tricky
> constraints. I've done some voluntary work for organisations where everything
> had to be chained down to the desks to prevent snatch thieves but never
> anything quite so complicated.
In addition to having (ahem) "dubious" clients, we also have "tenuous"
volunteers.
Most volunteers are developmentally disabled, autistic, physically
handicapped, etc. (They spend time with us as a form of occupational
therapy... give them something to do, something to focus on, etc.)
Others may be present solely to satisfy court-ordered probation
("community service") -- so, they might be *able* to do the work but
aren't going to bust their ass because they often feel like THEY
are the victim and this is unfair punishment ("Really? I don't have
to sign your attendance report. You can pick up trash on the side
of the highway in 100F weather if you're not happy *here*!")
I've walked into the bathroom and found folks shooting up. We've
had to have folks escorted off the property for violent outbursts
and assaults, etc.
And, turnover is relatively high -- someone "doing time" is not
likely to keep coming after his "sentence" has been completed.
It's just a completely different environment from a 9-to-5
(where folks are concerned about KEEPING their position!)
>> Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
>> AND if you think you can get another, for free!
>
> I can see why you need to lock things down.
>
> There are too many videos of how to format a write protected USB drive for you
> to stand much chance of preventing it. Use cheap nasty small ones would be the
> best idea that I can come up with. Ones that are too small to have any resale
> value.
I think if I intercept the *normal* driver install (VID/PID for THIS drive),
I can replace it with something that doesn't support write operations at
the device level.
But, that only locks the drive while it is installed in THIS machine.
> Another simple option would be a write once CD and then you could include
> images for a few different machines on one disk. That way any copy of the right
> CD will do to make a trashed machine work again.
Machines are now being offered without optical drives. I think the design
rationale is that you can access RUNTIME media via the network connection
and boot media via USB devices.
This is especially true for smaller machines (which are a favorite of
the clients because they don't want to have to lug something with a
17" display)
[I have a pair of netbooks, here, that I keep because they *are*
so small. I can slip them BOTH in a desk drawer instead of having
to store them on a shelf in a laptop bag.]
> Or even the micro CDs that come with drivers on.
I've been exploring UEFI BIOSes (for another project) with the goal
of making a machine unusable as a generic PC (prevent the OS from
being installed). If this bears fruit, I may be able to take some
information from that and use it to cripple these machines to
protect the HPA and boot record (e.g., block writes to any of
those areas so an OS install throws an error)