On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:> On 11/30/2023 7:30 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >> On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote: >>> On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >>>> On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote: >>>>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote: >>>>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine >>>>>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to >>>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it? >>>>> >>>>> It might be. >>>> >>>> Yeah, "might". >>>> >>>> Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place >>>> selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not >>>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to >>>> reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ") >>> >>> Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to >>> screw over his customers? "Not my problem!" >> >> How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange >> of money for services rendered? It's not like "hey Don, I tried >> installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be >> fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for >> refurbished machines. > > [Have you missed the point that our "customers" don't EXCHANGE MONEY > for the products? Will they exchange the same non-money for that > repair??No. You seem to not understand the concept I'm stating though.>> [...] >> Yes. The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your >> nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age). I've seen >> some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of >> homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of >> chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc). > > Remember, there is no monetary cost to the replacementSo what? You're already "charged" them a couple of hours worth of menial labor around your facility for the "gift" of the laptop in the first place. Now they're getting "charged" for the "gift" of the repair work. -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
cheap usb ("thumb") drives
Started by ●November 29, 2023
Reply by ●November 30, 20232023-11-30
Reply by ●November 30, 20232023-11-30
On 11/30/2023 9:39 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:> On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote: >> On 11/30/2023 7:30 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >>> On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote: >>>> On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote: >>>>> On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote: >>>>>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote: >>>>>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine >>>>>>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to >>>>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it? >>>>>> >>>>>> It might be. >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, "might". >>>>> >>>>> Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place >>>>> selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not >>>>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to >>>>> reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ") >>>> >>>> Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to >>>> screw over his customers? "Not my problem!" >>> >>> How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange >>> of money for services rendered? It's not like "hey Don, I tried >>> installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be >>> fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for >>> refurbished machines. >> >> [Have you missed the point that our "customers" don't EXCHANGE MONEY >> for the products? Will they exchange the same non-money for that >> repair?? > > No. You seem to not understand the concept I'm stating though.Monetary transactions and non-monetary transactions are conceptualized (by the parties involved) entirely differently. You want to PAY me to do something then (assuming I am willing to do it) you have leverage over my actions. You want me to GIVE you my time, then *I* have control over that. The folks who run non-profits tend to think their volunteers are employees that can be "ordered about". Yes, they can dictate the direction of the organization and its efforts. But, the folks charged with carrying this out are under no obligation to even stick around until they've finished their "directions". *Employees* tend to have far less freedom of choice; you knew you were giving up control over your time in exchange for money when you accepted the job. The same is true of *clients* of these organizations. They feel that "free" means they have no obligations nor qualms about asking for more. "You GAVE me this one, why can't you GIVE me a replacement?" I had a client from Somalia (refugee), about a 15 yrs ago, come to pick up his "free" computer. He complained because it had a CRT and not an LCD. "Do they even have electricity in your country??">>> [...] >>> Yes. The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your >>> nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age). I've seen >>> some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of >>> homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of >>> chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc). >> >> Remember, there is no monetary cost to the replacement > > So what? > > You're already "charged" them a couple of hours worth of menial labor > around your facility for the "gift" of the laptop in the first place. > Now they're getting "charged" for the "gift" of the repair work.No, the labor requirement is a recent addition to the mix. For the past ~20 years it was just a demonstration of "need" that was required. They don't see it as a "repair" but as a flaw in the "product"... "The computer you gave me doesn't work!" People (not just clients) rarely think that something is a consequence of their actions (or inactions). "It's a stupid design" "It just stopped working" etc. If they think they have *partial* blame, they also think the device should have anticipated their actions and safeguarded against a costly (time/money) failure. We bought a glass TTY in ~1978. It "got confused", at one point. We powered it off. Then back on. And the power supply went south. "You should have waited a few seconds between powering it off and on." Really? Shouldn't *it* have been designed to handle that possibility? Of course, the vendor doesn't want to lose a sale so sends someone out to fix the (defective) product.>
Reply by ●November 30, 20232023-11-30
On 11/30/2023 9:17 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:> In article <uka99g$1di0j$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid > says... >> >> E.g., if an item goes on sale soon after you purchased it at >> regular price, you could opt to return it, for a refund. And, >> turn right around and repurchase it (a *fresh* unit) for the >> sale price. >> >> Some stores will credit you the current SALE price for such returns >> in an obvious attempt to discourage this sort of practice. >> >> >> > > I bought a weedeater on sale at Lowes and could not get it started. No > Spatk. Took it back and got credit for it and had to buy a new one that > was not on sale. They should have just given me a replacement.Did you suggest this to them? Remember, the folks working at these places don't often think about the consequences of their remedies FROM THE CUSTOMER'S POINT OF VIEW. I try to put a suggestion in front of them so they don't have to do much thinking. E.g., I want to buy 6 of these, as advertised, to get the discount. But, you only have 5 in stock. Why not prorate the price of 6 (instead of telling me "no sale")? I've had folks refund the purchase amount -- and had to remind them that *I* had paid sales tax on the purchase (which they had failed to refund). No, I'm not pinching pennies. 8.7% of a purchase would be a nice discount, and, thus, equally un-nice surcharge! Especially if you pay it on "nothing" (the returned item)!!
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
The idiot Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 13:24:46 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 113 > Message-ID: <ukar2l$1gk79$2@dont-email.me> > References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net> <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumgr3q.v1f.dan@djph.net> <uk9tii$1blcg$2@dont-email.me> <slrnumh77j.v1f.dan@djph.net> <uka99g$1di0j$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumheq4.v1f.dan@djph.net> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:24:54 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4e7ef51c610ba137e6aac80b361fc094"; logging-data="1593577"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/yoqhyxDJ+MZOyJBCbxvCw" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:NZ62/S+7zk0dGgnmUT+7ncbN774= > In-Reply-To: <slrnumheq4.v1f.dan@djph.net> > Content-Language: en-US > X-Received-Bytes: 5863
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
The idiot Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 13:31:29 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 37 > Message-ID: <ukarf9$1gk79$3@dont-email.me> > References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net> > <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumgr3q.v1f.dan@djph.net> > <uk9tii$1blcg$2@dont-email.me> <slrnumh77j.v1f.dan@djph.net> > <uka99g$1di0j$1@dont-email.me> > <MPG.3fd27f9b36a6f8c1989ebb@news.eternal-september.org> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:31:38 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4e7ef51c610ba137e6aac80b361fc094"; > logging-data="1593577"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18zoTBNhMO53fsMrvJWvSp7" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:2VbTbTx4gcB0DY+wGhNEe+EeQWw= > Content-Language: en-US > In-Reply-To: <MPG.3fd27f9b36a6f8c1989ebb@news.eternal-september.org> > X-Received-Bytes: 2799
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
On 30/11/2023 12:15, Don Y wrote:> On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote: >>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote: >>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine >>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. >>>> >>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to >>>> upgrade to Windows, etc. >>> >>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it? >> >> It might be. > > If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you, > do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it? > How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a > product that was so EASILY mistreated?Depends on what you mean by easily. Few devices with spinning rust in can survive being dropped 3' onto a concrete floor, iPads and mobile phones are even more fragile. My old one had a bit missing from its "Indestructible" gorilla glass but still worked. My wife had someone drop an iPad destroying it beyond economic repair.> Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also, > refuse to do any further business with him?Potentially. We took to putting telltales into the shipping package after one damaged machine came back with clear evidence that it had stood upside down in 12" of salty water long enough for mild steel parts to go rusty. That pretty much clinched who was at fault (it was the sort of kit that is shipped in air floatation supports "this way up!"). Most spectacular one to repair we ever had was when they dropped one from the cargo bay door of a 747. It was never the same again.> > When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product, > the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to > cut our ties to you...")Absolutely. I had a strict policy of no support for existing work until my bills were paid. Some of the large companies I worked for as an employee and then later as a contractor would only pay their bigger bills when someone from the bailiffs turned up to take the fax machine away. I knew their systems and MO so I made damn sure that I got paid on time and in full.>>>> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution? >>>> (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've >>>> encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode... >>> >>> No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features. >>> An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable >>> option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs) >>> >>>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful >>>> of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error >>>> or mechanical failure) >>> >>> Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to >>> fail. >> >> That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people >> break USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing >> still in the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too. >> >> If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few >> reads if it is looked after. > > "Looked after" is a problem. The beauty of the restore partition was that > they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available. The thumb drive > will > require them to keep it on hand... somewhere.Why not continue to use the partition method and keep this option as a backup. I suspect the USB stick will get reused though. You could perhaps make all the important files invisible to naive end users.> OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have > to bring the machine into the shop. On public transportation. Time that > they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational). > > I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate > their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup: > > "I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?" > > "OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you. What's > your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct > image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)? Oh, you don't have > that handy? Well, get back to us when you do..."I can see it could be complex if the installed based is inhomogenous.> >> Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and kept >> cool and dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and >> nasty one croak on first use but it is rare. >> >> Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off! > > Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE). > So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge. Our GOAL > isn't to make their life any harder. OTOH, *they* should assume > responsibility > for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that > we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility. > > We used to give out SFF desktop machines. But, that was limited to > kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine! > > And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed, > the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move".I find it hard to work out what to do for the best under these tricky constraints. I've done some voluntary work for organisations where everything had to be chained down to the desks to prevent snatch thieves but never anything quite so complicated.> Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything > AND if you think you can get another, for free!I can see why you need to lock things down. There are too many videos of how to format a write protected USB drive for you to stand much chance of preventing it. Use cheap nasty small ones would be the best idea that I can come up with. Ones that are too small to have any resale value. Another simple option would be a write once CD and then you could include images for a few different machines on one disk. That way any copy of the right CD will do to make a trashed machine work again. Or even the micro CDs that come with drivers on. -- Martin Brown
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
On 30/11/2023 4:48 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:22:09 -0700) it happened Don Y > <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me>: > >> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine >> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. >> >> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to >> upgrade to Windows, etc. >> >> I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media >> in lieu of the backup partition. >> >> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution? >> (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've >> encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode... >> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful >> of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error >> or mechanical failure) > > I bought a cheap 1 TB USB stick, it lasted a few weeks. > Opening it up I found that the PCB had pads for input protection parts > none were fitted. > > OTOH I have an old 'Duracell' 16 GB USB stick that is still fine after more than 20 years daily use. > > As to write protectioon, no way, one can always do a dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/USBSTICK if one wants to. > Old SDcards had a mechanical switch, glue it? LOL > >I think the "switch" in a SD card is just a piece of plastic and relies on an actual switch in the socket that is activated by that piece of plastic. Since the SD card uses a fast serial protocol, and is quite likely connected to a processor running software rather than digital hardware, quite likely the write protect switch in the socket is at best connected to a GPIO readable by the processor, but possibly connected to nothing at all. Of course software can ignore it.
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
The arsehole Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > MIME-Version: 1.0 > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.14.0 > Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives > Content-Language: en-GB > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <uk97mv$25bup$1@solani.org> > From: Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> > In-Reply-To: <uk97mv$25bup$1@solani.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lines: 40 > Message-ID: <OXkaN.516$CVPf.15@fx15.ams4> > X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenet-news.net > NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2023 13:11:10 UTC > Organization: usenet-news.net > Bytes: 2518 > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 00:11:09 +1100 > X-Received-Bytes: 2570
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
The idiot Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 11:08:12 +0000 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 138 > Message-ID: <ukcer9$1rga1$1@dont-email.me> > References: <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me> <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net> > <uk9pjr$1b0dt$1@dont-email.me> <uk9udg$1boju$3@dont-email.me> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Injection-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 11:08:25 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="b119b31a666e28fc8e378323e919d7b0"; > logging-data="1950017"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX199a0niqKyZHKNnrFxNpPawr0ZV3yBoJQrKRgIOEaOUAA==" > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Cancel-Lock: sha1:DI9I36ZBftala5JlFaa2YyiKLrk= > In-Reply-To: <uk9udg$1boju$3@dont-email.me> > Content-Language: en-GB > X-Received-Bytes: 7460
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
On 2023-12-01, Chris Jones wrote:> On 30/11/2023 4:48 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> [...] >> Old SDcards had a mechanical switch, glue it? LOL >> >> > > I think the "switch" in a SD card is just a piece of plastic and relies > on an actual switch in the socket that is activated by that piece of > plastic.Indeed - the switch is in the reader; much like the old "WP Notch" on floppy disks. Granted, I'm not sure if any kids would bother trying to tape it up to enable writing :) (and yes, it's "honor system" -- a SD Card reader could potentially not have that switch/sensor built in; or the driver could ignore it) -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
