cheap usb ("thumb") drives

On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>
>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
> 
> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?

It might be.

>> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
>>     (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image)  I've
>>     encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
> 
> No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
> An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
> option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
> 
>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>     of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>     or mechanical failure)
> 
> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
> fail.

That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break 
USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in 
the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.

If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few 
reads if it is looked after. Longevity might be an issue longer term so 
not in the sun and kept cool and dry would make sense. I have had the 
odd really cheap and nasty one croak on first use but it is rare.

Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!

-- 
Martin Brown

On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>
>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>> 
>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
>
> It might be.

Yeah, "might".  

Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
selling refurbished machines.  So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not
directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")

Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")

>>> [...]
>>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>>     of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>>     or mechanical failure)
>> 
>> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
>> fail.
>
> That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break 
> USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in 
> the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.

Well sure.  But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter"
branded ones)


-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>>
>>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
>>
>> It might be.
> 
> Yeah, "might".
> 
> Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
> selling refurbished machines.  So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not
> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
> reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")

Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
screw over his customers?  "Not my problem!"

Do you take the same attitude with your *designs*:  "*I* hae
been paid so any problems henceforth are the client's!"

> Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
> kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")

It was my second post -- first response.

And, again, why would you ever think it's NOT a supplier's
problem to ensure he supplies a quality product?

No, it's not the school's property.  These are just individuals
(underprivileged youth who can't afford to BUY a computer;
does that mean they can be screwed over because they haven't
made any cash outlay?) being serviced by a non-profit.  Just
as if they'd PURCHASED a machine, from a store, they would expect
to return to that store (for support) if they had a problem.

In the past, we have been too generous with our (volunteer) time
in trying to restore machines that had been grossly misused;
investing hours to recover files from horribly infected/corrupted
disks.  (should we also have just said "not our problem"?  How
does that serve those youth?)

My approach has reshifted the balance of responsibility to
the clients -- if you misuse YOUR computer, you risk losing
YOUR files.  The only remedy that we can offer you is to restore
the computer to the state that it was WHEN WE GAVE IT TO YOU.
And, hey, look:  we'll give YOU the ability to do that so
you don't have to take the bus to our shop for that repair!
Aren't we incredibly supportive?!

>>>> [...]
>>>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>>>      of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>>>      or mechanical failure)
>>>
>>> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
>>> fail.
>>
>> That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break
>> USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in
>> the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
> 
> Well sure.  But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
> just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter"
> branded ones)

For our market, it wouldn't matter.  Do we get all holier-than-thou and
tell the (underprivileged youth) client that he's not taken good enough
care of his computer so we aren't going to help him?  What if he breaks
the keyboard?  Screen?  Do we "charge" him (underprivileged youth) for
the repair?  (he couldn't afford to BUY the machine but he *can* afford
to pay for its repair?)

These sorts quickly learn how to manipulate the system; so you have
to design "rules" that discourage that:

    "Gee, *so* sorry to see you broke the screen on your laptop.
    But, leave it with us and we'll get it back to you in a FEW WEEKS
    (free of charge) once we've been able to repair it."

    "Can't you just give me a replacement laptop?"

    "Sorry, no (cuz you would then treat each laptop we've given you
    as disposable, knowing any problems will get you a replacement!)."

    "But, you USED TO just give replacements..."

    "Yeah, but we no longer have as many laptops available to be able to
    be able to just DISCARD broken ones...like yours"

Then, with (some) of the costs for their actions born by them,
there is a chance they will think twice before engaging in
similar conduct.

[Another nonprofit used to offer subsidies to youth.  They
quickly learned that if they wanted money to buy something that
the group didn't have on hand, they could get a gift certificate
to one of the local department stores.  Of course, their need
couldn't be for something frivolous (game console?).  So, all
sorts of kids would come in claiming to need *underwear*...
and, walking out with a gift certificate.  No way to track
HOW that was actually used so no way to close the loop.
Unless you decide to *stock* underwear:  "Hmmm, what size
are you?  And, how many would you like?"   Suddenly, kids
had no overwhelming need for underwear...]

[[Still other nonprofits will blindly honor their demands and
use that to justify asking their donors for more money!  "We
had 217 requests for underwear; your donation will help put
clothing on these poor kiddies bottoms!"]]

On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>
>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>
>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
> 
> It might be.

If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you,
do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it?
How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a
product that was so EASILY mistreated?

Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also,
refuse to do any further business with him?

When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product,
the dynamics change!  ("You've been a bad boy!  We're going to
cut our ties to you...")

>>> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
>>>     (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image)  I've
>>>     encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
>>
>> No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
>> An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
>> option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
>>
>>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>>     of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>>     or mechanical failure)
>>
>> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
>> fail.
> 
> That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break USB 
> sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in the 
> machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
> 
> If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few reads if it 
> is looked after.

"Looked after" is a problem.  The beauty of the restore partition was that
they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available.  The thumb drive will
require them to keep it on hand... somewhere.

OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have
to bring the machine into the shop.  On public transportation.  Time that
they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational).

I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate
their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup:

    "I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?"

    "OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you.  What's
    your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct
    image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)?  Oh, you don't have
    that handy?  Well, get back to us when you do..."

> Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and 
> kept cool and dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and nasty 
> one croak on first use but it is rare.
> 
> Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!

Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE).
So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge.  Our GOAL
isn't to make their life any harder.  OTOH, *they* should assume responsibility
for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that
we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility.

We used to give out SFF desktop machines.  But, that was limited to
kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine!

And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed,
the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move".

Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
AND if you think you can get another, for free!

On Thursday, 30 November 2023 at 12:15:54 UTC, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote: 
> > On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote: 
> >> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote: 
> >>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine 
> >>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. 
> >>> 
> >>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to 
> >>> upgrade to Windows, etc. 
> >> 
> >> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it? 
> > 
> > It might be.
> If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you, 
> do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it? 
> How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a 
> product that was so EASILY mistreated? 
> 
> Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also, 
> refuse to do any further business with him? 
> 
> When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product, 
> the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to 
> cut our ties to you...")
> >>> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution? 
> >>>     (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image)  I've 
> >>>     encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode... 
> >> 
> >> No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features. 
> >> An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable 
> >> option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs) 
> >> 
> >>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful 
> >>>     of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error 
> >>>     or mechanical failure) 
> >> 
> >> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to 
> >> fail. 
> > 
> > That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break USB 
> > sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in the 
> > machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too. 
> > 
> > If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few reads if it 
> > is looked after.
> "Looked after" is a problem. The beauty of the restore partition was that 
> they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available. The thumb drive will 
> require them to keep it on hand... somewhere. 
> 
> OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have 
> to bring the machine into the shop. On public transportation. Time that 
> they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational). 
> 
> I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate 
> their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup: 
> 
> "I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?" 
> 
> "OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you. What's 
> your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct 
> image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)? Oh, you don't have 
> that handy? Well, get back to us when you do..."
> > Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and 
> > kept cool and dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and nasty 
> > one croak on first use but it is rare. 
> > 
> > Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!
> Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE). 
> So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge. Our GOAL 
> isn't to make their life any harder. OTOH, *they* should assume responsibility 
> for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that 
> we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility. 
> 
> We used to give out SFF desktop machines. But, that was limited to 
> kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine! 
> 
> And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed, 
> the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move". 
> 
> Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything 
> AND if you think you can get another, for free!

Some USB sticks can be very reliable.  I recently tested a Samsung FIT+
128Gbyte drive by writing data to it, reading it back and verifying
continuously for a few weeks using superspeed mode.  (The objective
was actually to test the superspeed interface rather than the flash.)
There were no errors.
John

On 11/30/2023 5:49 AM, John Walliker wrote:
> On Thursday, 30 November 2023 at 12:15:54 UTC, Don Y wrote:

>> Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
>> AND if you think you can get another, for free!
> 
> Some USB sticks can be very reliable.  I recently tested a Samsung FIT+
> 128Gbyte drive by writing data to it, reading it back and verifying
> continuously for a few weeks using superspeed mode.  (The objective
> was actually to test the superspeed interface rather than the flash.)
> There were no errors.

I wouldn't doubt it.  But, there is likely a direct relationship
between cost and quality (with exceptions).  The thumb drive isn't
intended to see much use (goal:  zero!) so read performance isn't
a driving force (I can reinstall an image in just a few minutes;
no need to do a real/slow "install").  This should let us drive
down the cost of the drive *and* make the drives less valuable
as possible resale items:
   "Where is your restore drive?"
   "I lost (sold!) it..."

Our goals are:
- don't significantly increase our costs (passed on to donors)
- ensure it's continued availability (i.e., not overwritten!)
- don't "tempt" the clients (by providing something that has
   other value that they could exploit to OUR detriment)

If laptops had internal USB slots (like many servers), that
would be the ideal spot to install it.

I've lost *one* thumbdrive to malfunction (going R/O).  But,
I have noticed that write speed seems to suffer with more
frequent writes.

I had initially advocated for having the kids store "their"
files on thumb drives so there was no risk of losing anything
on the disk drive if (when!) it is restored from a backup.
This seemed idea as it also broke the reliance on a particular
computer (i.e., their files could be portable).

In practice, this didn't work because of degradation in the
thumb drives.

So, now I have a second partition ("D:") that they are intended
to use as persistent storage.  *If* they don't munge the disk
(like trying to install an OS upgrade), then I can restore their
"system" partition and their user files will be right where
they left them.

Again, you want to serve THEIR needs but without increasing
YOUR costs (time/effort/donations) in the process.

On 30/11/2023 11:03, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>>>      of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>>>      or mechanical failure)
>>>
>>> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
>>> fail.
>>
>> That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break
>> USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in
>> the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
> 
> Well sure.  But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
> just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter"
> branded ones)

I recall having one fall apart on me - a cheap and nasty one but it was 
very much a one off and it might have been provoked by previous bad 
handling by the owner. It had some battle scars shall we say...

Unlike a Fluke multimeter they don't take kindly to being driven over!

-- 
Martin Brown

On 11/30/2023 3:47 AM, albert wrote:
> In article <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>, Dan Purgert  <dan@djph.net> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>
>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>
>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
>>
>>>
>>> - Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
>>>     (so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image)  I've
>>>     encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
>>
>> No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
>> An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
>> option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
>>
>>> - How durable are *cheap* thumb drives?  (can I get a handful
>>>     of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
>>>     or mechanical failure)
>>
>> Pretty durable.  It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
>> fail.
> 
> I installed a backup mechanism to copy daily backups to a thumb drive.
> That failed after 6 months or so. The thumb drive is no more
> recognized at all to normal usb software not even as a device.

Presumably, exceeded the write wear limit.  (many are in the 10K and lower
range, depending on technology).  This was something you quickly
learned when using FLASH (and other non-volatile technologies that
predated it) for parameter storage:  "No, you don't want to
update the store every time the user makes a change because he
can (effectively) make a lot of changes in a very short time!"

But, any idea as to why the drive wasn't *recognized*?  I'd assume
a controller *in* the drive could at least respond to the initial
probe, even if the media is hosed.

Likewise, why did the one example I cited "go R/O" instead of
simply dying?  (How did it KNOW that it could no longer
write to the flash?  And, why was the failure for ALL of
the flash instead of just bad blocks??)

> So repetitive writing is a bad idea. (The backups were instead
> copied to the mount directories. So they were there.
> It was the idea to have the backups on a different medium.
> Now I write to a different hard drive in the same machine.)

I just push the stuff that I want backed up onto some other
machine on the network.  As that target can vary, it makes hunting
for backups a bit of a challenge -- but, one that isn't
encountered often!

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/30/2023 5:49 AM, John Walliker wrote:
>> On Thursday, 30 November 2023 at 12:15:54 UTC, Don Y wrote:
> 
>>> Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
>>> AND if you think you can get another, for free!
>> 
>> Some USB sticks can be very reliable.  I recently tested a Samsung FIT+
>> 128Gbyte drive by writing data to it, reading it back and verifying
>> continuously for a few weeks using superspeed mode.  (The objective
>> was actually to test the superspeed interface rather than the flash.)
>> There were no errors.
> 
> I wouldn't doubt it.  But, there is likely a direct relationship
> between cost and quality (with exceptions).  The thumb drive isn't
> intended to see much use (goal:  zero!) so read performance isn't
> a driving force (I can reinstall an image in just a few minutes;
> no need to do a real/slow "install").  This should let us drive
> down the cost of the drive *and* make the drives less valuable
> as possible resale items:
>   "Where is your restore drive?"
>   "I lost (sold!) it..."
> 
> Our goals are:
> - don't significantly increase our costs (passed on to donors)
> - ensure it's continued availability (i.e., not overwritten!)
> - don't "tempt" the clients (by providing something that has
>   other value that they could exploit to OUR detriment)
> 
> If laptops had internal USB slots (like many servers), that
> would be the ideal spot to install it.
> 
> I've lost *one* thumbdrive to malfunction (going R/O).  But,
> I have noticed that write speed seems to suffer with more
> frequent writes.
> 
> I had initially advocated for having the kids store "their"
> files on thumb drives so there was no risk of losing anything
> on the disk drive if (when!) it is restored from a backup.
> This seemed idea as it also broke the reliance on a particular
> computer (i.e., their files could be portable).
> 
> In practice, this didn't work because of degradation in the
> thumb drives.
> 
> So, now I have a second partition ("D:") that they are intended
> to use as persistent storage.  *If* they don't munge the disk
> (like trying to install an OS upgrade), then I can restore their
> "system" partition and their user files will be right where
> they left them.
> 
> Again, you want to serve THEIR needs but without increasing
> YOUR costs (time/effort/donations) in the process.
> 
> 

If your laptops have full size SD card slots, you could use micro-SDs with
adapters. 

Lots of adapters have a &ldquo;read-only&rdquo; switch, and that plus a drop of epoxy
seems like a reasonable solution. 

Cheers 

Phil Hobbs 

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
>>>>> and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
>>>
>>> It might be.
>> 
>> Yeah, "might".
>> 
>> Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
>> selling refurbished machines.  So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not
>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
>> reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
>
> Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
> screw over his customers?  "Not my problem!"

How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange
of money for services rendered?  It's not like "hey Don, I tried
installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be
fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for
refurbished machines.

>
> Do you take the same attitude with your *designs*:  "*I* hae
> been paid so any problems henceforth are the client's!"

When the problem is "hey Dan, so I erased the EEPROM on your board, and
now it doesn't work!" ... yeah, Not My Problem. I didn't ship the
product with any interface to that 256-bit EEPROM with my
super-secret-go-code ("12345" ;) ).

When the problem is "Hey Dan, so I hooked your thing up like the example
said, but pin X2 isn't working", well either

  1. I made an error in the design (or example) OR
  2. The user messed up in a recoverable way ("Oh, you plugged the LED 
      into pin X1") OR
  3. The user messed up in a partially-recoverable way ("Oh, you forgot
      the resistor on the LED, it burned out. Get a new LED from the 
      bin") OR
  3. The user messed up in a completely non-recoverable way ("You tried
      to drive a motor directly from the I/O pins?? Board's dead.")


>
>> Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
>> kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")
>
> It was my second post -- first response.
>
> And, again, why would you ever think it's NOT a supplier's
> problem to ensure he supplies a quality product?

There's a VAST difference between someone designing / selling a product
that doesn't live up to the measure of "quality" and the idea
that a vendor is somehow "still responsible" when ownership changes
hands.


>
> No, it's not the school's property.  These are just individuals
> (underprivileged youth who can't afford to BUY a computer;
> does that mean they can be screwed over because they haven't
> made any cash outlay?) being serviced by a non-profit.  

AH HAH!  A non-profit.  That explains so much.

> Just as if they'd PURCHASED a machine, from a store, they would expect
> to return to that store (for support) if they had a problem.

Indeed, and that support tends to cost money.

>
> In the past, we have been too generous with our (volunteer) time
> in trying to restore machines that had been grossly misused;
> investing hours to recover files from horribly infected/corrupted
> disks.  (should we also have just said "not our problem"?  How
> does that serve those youth?)

If these "underpriveleged kids" are involved with your nonprofit as some
kind of "care" program (either via school aftercare, or some other
community outreach thingy via the local community center, etc) ... then
they are not really "customers" are they; but rather "users" of
computers that your nonprofit loans out.

In which case, it sounds like you need better rules around what they can
do with your equipment, and what the consequences of asking for help
after they get viruses or fail at installing Linux, etc.


>> Well sure.  But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
>> just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter"
>> branded ones)
>
> For our market, it wouldn't matter.  Do we get all holier-than-thou and
> tell the (underprivileged youth) client that he's not taken good enough
> care of his computer so we aren't going to help him?  

Well, if they broke the USB connector clear off their USB stick, there's
kind of "literally nothing you can do" at that point.

My other comment about "it fell apart" is more looking at those super
chintzy ones that sometimes live in boxes at convenience-store checkout
counters.  I'm pretty sure that bubble-packing on most products is
sturdier plastic than the housing on those things.


> What if he breaks the keyboard?  Screen?  Do we "charge" him
> (underprivileged youth) for the repair?  (he couldn't afford to BUY
> the machine but he *can* afford to pay for its repair?)

Yes.  The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your
nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age).  I've seen
some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of
homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of
chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc).



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