On 2/4/2023 3:05 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:> On 2023-02-04, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote: >> On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 16:21:48 +0000, Clive Arthur >> >> The other issue is that with all-electric, one is SOL if no power. But >> if non-electronic, a gas stove will still work. With electronically >> controlled stoves, the key question to ask is if anything will work if >> no power. Nowadays, a common pattern is that some of the stovetop >> burners will work in the dark, but the fancy stuff will not. > > A small disaster that takes out the electricty supply will likely be > fixed before anyone starves to death or even looses their freezer > and as it's small you can drive (or walk) to the edge of it and buy > cooked food.You can also keep a bag of charcoal and grill, outdoors (even if you live in cold places). The real pisser is folks with heat pumps during a power outage... no hot water, no heat, no ACbrrr, no lites, no TV, no internet, etc. "All electric" homes have serious downsides!> A large disaster will likely take out the natural gas pumps too, like > in "Texas 2021"We had an unnaturally cold spell several years ago (10?). There was insufficient gas pressure to meet the demands of all of the homes craving heat. Your furnace would light; then shutdown because the flame wouldn't get hot enough, quick enough. Lather, rinse, repeat. The temporary fix was to shut off the gas supply to parts of town so the other parts had enough pressure to run their appliances.
Nichrome wire
Started by ●January 31, 2023
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
Reply by ●February 5, 20232023-02-05
On 2023-02-04 01:21, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000) it happened Clive Arthur > <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in <trk5iq$1l09j$1@dont-email.me>: > >> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>> and loss. >>> >>> RL >> >> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. > > It depends: > I have one induction cookplate that gives me a big headache when using it. > Probably RF radiation, so I no longer use it. > My Chinese induction experiments work fine though: > http://panteltje.com/pub/induction_heater_quadcopter_power_dummy_load_test_IMG_6102.JPG > http://panteltje.com/pub/melting_solder_in_an_metal_olive_bottle_cap_IMG_5191.JPG > http://panteltje.com/pub/carbon_crucible_zero_load_IMG_5429.JPG >You folks don't have real weather, though. Round here we get the occasional storm that would make an Orkneyman or Shetlander shudder. Gas heat, gas cooktop, gasoline generator, Good Medicine. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:46:38 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in <99d86a08-66dc-7e57-6e4a-6ba1f1bc9d5d@electrooptical.net>:>On 2023-02-04 01:21, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000) it happened Clive Arthur >> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in <trk5iq$1l09j$1@dont-email.me>: >> >>> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>>> and loss. >>>> >>>> RL >>> >>> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >>> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. >> >> It depends: >> I have one induction cookplate that gives me a big headache when using it. >> Probably RF radiation, so I no longer use it. >> My Chinese induction experiments work fine though: >> http://panteltje.com/pub/induction_heater_quadcopter_power_dummy_load_test_IMG_6102.JPG >> http://panteltje.com/pub/melting_solder_in_an_metal_olive_bottle_cap_IMG_5191.JPG >> http://panteltje.com/pub/carbon_crucible_zero_load_IMG_5429.JPG >> > >You folks don't have real weather, though.Oh you must be kidding I remember going for a job interview by bus when it was -40 C here, Got of the bus at the wrong stop and had to walk miles to the company with just a plastic coat and jeans... Luckily met some old schoolmates there and warmed up in a local restaurant Got the job When I got back in Amsterdam in my flat at the 9th floor, the central heating no longer worked.. Luckily had an electric heater. (The flat next to it was the one that a Boeing 747 cargo plane flew into, 4 years after I moved to the North here, but that was not weather related). We also many years ago had massive flooding from storms in the south west... Dams were build after that,>Round here we get the >occasional storm that would make an Orkneyman or Shetlander shudder. >Gas heat, gas cooktop, gasoline generator, Good Medicine.I have gas central heating here. For that to work you need electricity too. Cooking on a simple electric plate, and a microwave with grill that has many programs you can select .. Electricity almost never goes for more than a few hours (all cables are underground here), but I have a 250 Ah lifepo4 battery pack and a 2000 W pure sine wave converter to 230 V 50 Hz, plus flexible solar panels that I can lay out in the garden when needed, And radios for communication, have both ham and marine licenses. OTOH I have camped and survived in the US north near the Canadian border in the wild and down under in the wild, and even in the south of the US... near the Mexican border...., in Europe .. where not... I do seem to have a polar sleeping bag around... so... You 'merrycan balloonitics should really get your trip together, so many in Texas now without heating I did read, AGAIN. Maybe if it gets worse just get a boat and sail south, fish, some fruit for vitamin C, a radio, solar panels, battery, and watch the US made mushrooms in the sky. What's it called: 'jippy-yes' will probably be out too, but there is Glonass and a the Chinese system and I DO have a sextant and trained how to use it; http://panteltje.com/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG its a cheap one but to find Africa it should help. at least... now to learn how to survive among the dinos^H^H^H^H^H lions and snakes,'love to watch those programs on TV here. So ... do you know how to make a fire? (I mean other than shorting your prototype or dropping your soldering iron? Hey I seem to have a fire starter too... You gatta be ready you know. cannibalism, US will turn into a wild place with black warlords fighting and eating each other.. You need to learn how to make and set traps too. Are you ready? Pretty good swimmer too, once went through the ice, got out again.... almost like a polar bear.... There but for fortune...
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On 04/02/2023 18:31, Don Y wrote:> why not use a microwave oven for all > food prep?Because it is inefficient. (Mine is; present your results.) Heating 0.25 kgs of water from 18 to boiling, Microwave: 265 kJ of electricity, induction hob: 118kJ. Ratio: 0.45. The energy of the water alone is 86kJ but inefficiency includes heating the water container, Pyrex vs steel. This was an approximate but real test and not a measure of the underlying energy transfer. Previously when I tested the induction hob it was close to the kettle's efficiency, like 93% vs 87% but I heated 1kg of water then, the kettle has a minimum of 0.5kgs so I did not test this time. I haven't added the 2W all the time the MW plugged is in, the 28W while its door is open [light] nor the 35W it uses afterwards cooling itself.> I can't use a gas > stove for this (can't get the flame low enough as it always > leaves a small hot spot). And, electric is a juggling act > to see how close to "OFF" you can set the control!A case for induction. I have 9 settings plus boost and a "keep hot" setting. There are big and small hotplates so this extends the range of settings. I have no problem simmering, in fact the low numbers are so good I can cook casseroles on the hob without any sticking or burning - forget putting the iron pot in the oven. To melt chocolate it is recommended to use a bowl in saucepan of boiling water - forget that, just put chocolate directly in a saucepan and set the induction hob to 1 or 2. The low simmering saves money because I can cook without steam issuing from the lids.
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On 2023-02-06 01:30, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:46:38 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in > <99d86a08-66dc-7e57-6e4a-6ba1f1bc9d5d@electrooptical.net>: > >> On 2023-02-04 01:21, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000) it happened Clive Arthur >>> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in <trk5iq$1l09j$1@dont-email.me>: >>> >>>> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >>>> >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>>>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>>>> and loss. >>>>> >>>>> RL >>>> >>>> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >>>> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. >>> >>> It depends: >>> I have one induction cookplate that gives me a big headache when using it. >>> Probably RF radiation, so I no longer use it. >>> My Chinese induction experiments work fine though: >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/induction_heater_quadcopter_power_dummy_load_test_IMG_6102.JPG >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/melting_solder_in_an_metal_olive_bottle_cap_IMG_5191.JPG >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/carbon_crucible_zero_load_IMG_5429.JPG >>> >> >> You folks don't have real weather, though. > > Oh you must be kidding > I remember going for a job interview by bus when it was -40 C here, > Got of the bus at the wrong stop and had to walk miles to the company > with just a plastic coat and jeans... > Luckily met some old schoolmates there and warmed up in a local restaurant > Got the job > When I got back in Amsterdam in my flat at the 9th floor, the central heating no longer worked.. > Luckily had an electric heater. > (The flat next to it was the one that a Boeing 747 cargo plane flew into, 4 years after I moved to the North here, > but that was not weather related). > We also many years ago had massive flooding from storms in the south west... > Dams were build after that, > > >> Round here we get the >> occasional storm that would make an Orkneyman or Shetlander shudder. >> Gas heat, gas cooktop, gasoline generator, Good Medicine. > > I have gas central heating here. > For that to work you need electricity too.Right, which is where the gasoline generator comes in. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On 2023-02-06 01:30, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:46:38 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs > <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in > <99d86a08-66dc-7e57-6e4a-6ba1f1bc9d5d@electrooptical.net>: > >> On 2023-02-04 01:21, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000) it happened Clive Arthur >>> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in <trk5iq$1l09j$1@dont-email.me>: >>> >>>> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >>>> >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>>>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>>>> and loss. >>>>> >>>>> RL >>>> >>>> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >>>> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. >>> >>> It depends: >>> I have one induction cookplate that gives me a big headache when using it. >>> Probably RF radiation, so I no longer use it. >>> My Chinese induction experiments work fine though: >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/induction_heater_quadcopter_power_dummy_load_test_IMG_6102.JPG >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/melting_solder_in_an_metal_olive_bottle_cap_IMG_5191.JPG >>> http://panteltje.com/pub/carbon_crucible_zero_load_IMG_5429.JPG >>> >> >> You folks don't have real weather, though. > > Oh you must be kidding > I remember going for a job interview by bus when it was -40 C here, > Got of the bus at the wrong stop and had to walk miles to the company > with just a plastic coat and jeans... > Luckily met some old schoolmates there and warmed up in a local restaurant > Got the job > When I got back in Amsterdam in my flat at the 9th floor, the central heating no longer worked.. > Luckily had an electric heater. > (The flat next to it was the one that a Boeing 747 cargo plane flew into, 4 years after I moved to the North here, > but that was not weather related). > We also many years ago had massive flooding from storms in the south west... > Dams were build after that, > > >> Round here we get the >> occasional storm that would make an Orkneyman or Shetlander shudder. >> Gas heat, gas cooktop, gasoline generator, Good Medicine. > > I have gas central heating here. > For that to work you need electricity too.Right, which is where the gasoline generator comes in. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 09:01:19 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:>On 2023-02-06 01:30, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:46:38 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs >> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in >> <99d86a08-66dc-7e57-6e4a-6ba1f1bc9d5d@electrooptical.net>: >> >>> On 2023-02-04 01:21, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000) it happened Clive Arthur >>>> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in <trk5iq$1l09j$1@dont-email.me>: >>>> >>>>> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >>>>> >>>>> <snip> >>>>> >>>>>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>>>>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>>>>> and loss. >>>>>> >>>>>> RL >>>>> >>>>> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >>>>> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. >>>> >>>> It depends: >>>> I have one induction cookplate that gives me a big headache when using it. >>>> Probably RF radiation, so I no longer use it. >>>> My Chinese induction experiments work fine though: >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/induction_heater_quadcopter_power_dummy_load_test_IMG_6102.JPG >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/melting_solder_in_an_metal_olive_bottle_cap_IMG_5191.JPG >>>> http://panteltje.com/pub/carbon_crucible_zero_load_IMG_5429.JPG >>>> >>> >>> You folks don't have real weather, though. >> >> Oh you must be kidding >> I remember going for a job interview by bus when it was -40 C here, >> Got of the bus at the wrong stop and had to walk miles to the company >> with just a plastic coat and jeans... >> Luckily met some old schoolmates there and warmed up in a local restaurant >> Got the job >> When I got back in Amsterdam in my flat at the 9th floor, the central heating no longer worked.. >> Luckily had an electric heater. >> (The flat next to it was the one that a Boeing 747 cargo plane flew into, 4 years after I moved to the North here, >> but that was not weather related). >> We also many years ago had massive flooding from storms in the south west... >> Dams were build after that, >> >> >>> Round here we get the >>> occasional storm that would make an Orkneyman or Shetlander shudder. >>> Gas heat, gas cooktop, gasoline generator, Good Medicine. >> >> I have gas central heating here. >> For that to work you need electricity too. > >Right, which is where the gasoline generator comes in. > >Cheers > >Phil HobbsOur old Victorian had a "gravity heater", giant pilot light, convection only. It was probably inefficient, but gas used to be cheap.
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On 2/6/2023 2:43 AM, James wrote:> On 04/02/2023 18:31, Don Y wrote: >> why not use a microwave oven for all >> food prep? > > Because it is inefficient. (Mine is; present your results.)IME, I've never heard anyone cite the ENERGY EFFICIENCY of their meal prep method/equipment. They do, however, tend to be concerned with the TIME efficiency (note the portion of my quote that you elided): If I bring a pot of water to temperature instantly (!), will that meaningfully change the amount of time it takes for the contents to cook? (why not use a microwave oven for all food prep?) I made pasta for breakfast. As I hadn't planned on this, previously, I had to fetch a container of bolognese sauce from the freezer. I could coax the block of sauce into a saucepan and heat it on the stovetop as an expedited means of "defrosting" -- and resign myself to having to clean another saucepan, afterwards (time). Or, I can put it in the microwave for a few minutes -- while I put the pot of water (for the pasta) on the stovetop. Forty minutes later, I'd eaten the meal and cleaned the plate, silver and saucepot. And, the pasta spent 20 of those minutes "cooking". If I was concerned with the energy efficiency of the meal, I would have taken the sauce out of the freezer yesterday and let it thaw in the refrigerator -- instead of "forcing" the issue in the microwave!> Heating 0.25 kgs of water from 18 to boiling, Microwave: 265 kJ of electricity, > induction hob: 118kJ. Ratio: 0.45. The energy of the water alone is 86kJ but > inefficiency includes heating the water container, Pyrex vs steel. This was an > approximate but real test and not a measure of the underlying energy transfer. > > Previously when I tested the induction hob it was close to the kettle's > efficiency, like 93% vs 87% but I heated 1kg of water then, the kettle has a > minimum of 0.5kgs so I did not test this time.Wow, you must be the life of the party -- not! :>> I haven't added the 2W all the time the MW plugged is in, the 28W while its > door is open [light] nor the 35W it uses afterwards cooling itself.Your stove/oven doesn't use ANY electricity while it is HARD-WIRED to the mains? No clock? Standby power for the MCU in the controller?>> I can't use a gas >> stove for this (can't get the flame low enough as it always >> leaves a small hot spot). And, electric is a juggling act >> to see how close to "OFF" you can set the control! > > A case for induction. I have 9 settings plus boost and a "keep hot" setting. > There are big and small hotplates so this extends the range of settings. I > have no problem simmering, in fact the low numbers are so good I can cook > casseroles on the hob without any sticking or burning - forget putting the iron > pot in the oven. To melt chocolate it is recommended to use a bowl in saucepan > of boiling water - forget that, just put chocolate directly in a saucepan and > set the induction hob to 1 or 2. The low simmering saves money because I can > cook without steam issuing from the lids.I've not used a double-boiler since the last time I used gas (40+ years ago). I routinely melt chocolate (SWMBO enjoys almonds covered in dark chocolate and rolled in cocoa powder) on the stovetop. The chocolate doesn't boil or burn on the lowest heat setting. We make rice weekly using the lowest setting of the burner to SLOWLY cook the grains -- while we're preparing the rest of the meal on the other burners. I routinely use the microwave oven to "soften" butter (the days of heated butter compartments in refrigerators seem long gone). Then, have the refrigerator resolidify it when returned there -- trading my time for energy inefficiency (I have no desire to wait for the butter to come to room temperature to soften) You'll find that cooking a heavy, thick sauce leads to a much larger thermal gradient from the 12 inches of material that separate the burner surface from the top of the contents. The lower surface will be "boiling" (evidenced by bubbles percolating up through the sauce and "splattering") while the upper layers remain at room temperature. There is no way the cooktop can compensate for this; you have to routinely "ladle" the contents from the bottom of the pot up to the top to keep those on the bottom from burning to the pan and move the cooler material from the top down to the heat source. However, this isn't a wasted effort as it gives you a chance to shake the condensate from the underside of the lid, thus thickening the sauce. Heat sources that aren't well distributed (like a gas flame, on "low") only exacerbate this due to the thermal gradient HORIZONTALLY within the pot (a small diameter heat source isn't going to effectively heat the outer edges of a 12" wide pot). But, electric lets you select a large diameter heating surface AND low power; turn the control on until the "burner on" light JUST illuminates. At this power level, water *won't* boil (but the sauce will -- due to the insulating effect of the material above)
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 11:31:01 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:>On 2/3/2023 4:32 PM, Clive Arthur wrote: >> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>> and loss. >>> >>> RL >> >> But induction is the bee's knees.� I'd never go back to gas, and the only thing >> I miss is using the flame to char peppers. > >We didn't like the induction cooktops when we were shopping. >It seems their (practical) claim to fame is how quickly they >heat up. But, aside from bringing a pot of water to boil, >they're not going to significantly change the overall cooking >time. > >Pancakes, yesterday. Roughly two minutes per skillet-full. >I suspect I could cook on a higher heat setting but will >that cut the time down to... 90 seconds? And, what would >the consequences be for the flapjacks? Will the sausages >be ready? > >If I bring a pot of water to temperature instantly (!), will >that meaningfully change the amount of time it takes for the >contents to cook? (why not use a microwave oven for all >food prep?) > >I routinely (4-6 wks) make a 16 qt pot of red sauce. It >takes ~12 hours to cook -- so the flavors mellow. The >biggest problem is making sure the pot doesn't get *too* >hot (the thermal gradient through a foot of sauce is pretty >high) and burn to the bottom of the pan. I can't use a gas >stove for this (can't get the flame low enough as it always >leaves a small hot spot). And, electric is a juggling act >to see how close to "OFF" you can set the control!A FOM for a big steam boiler is "turndown ratio." Our newish Bosch 5-burner stovetop is fabulous. To avoid hot spots, use a thick cast aluminum pot, like the Curtis Stone ones.
Reply by ●February 6, 20232023-02-06
Don - there exists an equation whereby the temperature of a surface of a given area subjected to a given wattage is returned. The surrounding air is assumed free standing. something like this: temp = 300 * watts / area You might look in web for such a creature. Hul Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> How do I determine the power handling (thermal) capabilities > and impact on mechanical strength at specific power > levels/temperatures?
