On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: <snip>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects > of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer > and loss. > > RLBut induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. -- Cheers Clive
Nichrome wire
Started by ●January 31, 2023
Reply by ●February 3, 20232023-02-03
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On a sunny day (Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000) it happened Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in <trk5iq$1l09j$1@dont-email.me>:>On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: > ><snip> > >> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >> and loss. >> >> RL > >But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers.It depends: I have one induction cookplate that gives me a big headache when using it. Probably RF radiation, so I no longer use it. My Chinese induction experiments work fine though: http://panteltje.com/pub/induction_heater_quadcopter_power_dummy_load_test_IMG_6102.JPG http://panteltje.com/pub/melting_solder_in_an_metal_olive_bottle_cap_IMG_5191.JPG http://panteltje.com/pub/carbon_crucible_zero_load_IMG_5429.JPG
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000, Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:>On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: > ><snip> > >> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >> and loss. >> >> RL > >But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers.My wife would find that crippling. But more generally, some European friends of mine have an induction cook top. It is fast to boil water, but it nonetheless is very frustrating to cook with, because it has only ten distinct power levels, so one cannot get the power level just right. There are some makes and models that have more like one hundred levels, which is enough to be stepless in practice. But most have at most ten levels, and the product brochures are ambiguous here. So, if no specific number of power levels is clearly stated in plain words, most likely it's no more than ten, so move on. For a cook top in one's possession, one can measure the distinct power levels by measuring the AC power consumption as one slowly adjusts the cooking power level while heating a big pot of water. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On 04/02/2023 15:56, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000, Clive Arthur > <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>> and loss. >>> >>> RL >> >> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. > > My wife would find that crippling. > > But more generally, some European friends of mine have an induction > cook top. It is fast to boil water, but it nonetheless is very > frustrating to cook with, because it has only ten distinct power > levels, so one cannot get the power level just right. > > There are some makes and models that have more like one hundred > levels, which is enough to be stepless in practice. But most have at > most ten levels, and the product brochures are ambiguous here. > > So, if no specific number of power levels is clearly stated in plain > words, most likely it's no more than ten, so move on. > > For a cook top in one's possession, one can measure the distinct power > levels by measuring the AC power consumption as one slowly adjusts the > cooking power level while heating a big pot of water. > > Joe GwinnOurs, a mid range AEG, has half steps from half to 9 so about 18 levels, plus a 'power boost' which is frighteningly quick. I really like it, you can dry-fry chopped onion really slowly and get a large pot of spuds on the go really quickly. It's so much easier to clean than gas and only gets hot where a hot pan sits. We did have to lose some of our very old pans though, but they didn't go to waste. After using other types for years, we came across these in holiday rental accommodation, and were so impressed we decided to change. -- Cheers Clive
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> On 2/1/2023 1:52 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > > whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 4:30:48 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote: > >> > >>> I recall having a pair of electric *socks* as a kid. Powered > >>> by D cells. Definitely not cherry red :> > >> > >> Maybe Nitinol? The flexibility (elastic range) is more important than > >> other mechanical properties. For a hot-wire cutter, my experimenting > >> with NiCr was dominated by the way the taut wire didn't hold its length. > >> > >> I suspect the familiar wave-surface foam slabs are cut with a straight > >> (wire? knife?) as the foam was fed from a pair of very bumpy rollers. > > > > If you don't mind the increased power dissipation and poorer cut > > definition, you could use a thicker wire. An adjustable mounting, that > > allows you to shorten the length of wire in use, will reduce the > > stresses when cutting thinner material. > > > > There ought not to be too much side load on a hot cutting wire unless > > the machine is being over-worked, but if the force is mainly from one > > direction, substituting a nichrome ribbon for the wire might give more > > resistance to bending in that direction. > > > > Rather than starting from the resistance of the wire, try looking for a > > material that has the necessary hot strength/flexibility and then cut a > > narrow strip of it from some sheet. Match the electrical supply to the > > material, rather than the other way around. > > Or, only apply the material in applications for which it is > suited! That's the point of my question.Just as an aside, telephone drop wires are made of copper-coated high tensile steel, so they might be worth investigating. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On 2/3/2023 4:32 PM, Clive Arthur wrote:> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: > > <snip> > >> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >> and loss. >> >> RL > > But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the only thing > I miss is using the flame to char peppers.We didn't like the induction cooktops when we were shopping. It seems their (practical) claim to fame is how quickly they heat up. But, aside from bringing a pot of water to boil, they're not going to significantly change the overall cooking time. Pancakes, yesterday. Roughly two minutes per skillet-full. I suspect I could cook on a higher heat setting but will that cut the time down to... 90 seconds? And, what would the consequences be for the flapjacks? Will the sausages be ready? If I bring a pot of water to temperature instantly (!), will that meaningfully change the amount of time it takes for the contents to cook? (why not use a microwave oven for all food prep?) I routinely (4-6 wks) make a 16 qt pot of red sauce. It takes ~12 hours to cook -- so the flavors mellow. The biggest problem is making sure the pot doesn't get *too* hot (the thermal gradient through a foot of sauce is pretty high) and burn to the bottom of the pan. I can't use a gas stove for this (can't get the flame low enough as it always leaves a small hot spot). And, electric is a juggling act to see how close to "OFF" you can set the control! [The induction cooktops seemed to have a few fixed settings instead of an infinitely variable dial. Some models also had interactions between burners; "if the power drawn by burners 1&2 -- or 3&4 -- exceeds a threshold..."] We've been more focused on the oven portion wrt baking. If you can cut a sheet of cookies down to 8 minutes from 12 -- and make 6 (or more) sheets in a batch, then you can *actually* speed things up. [OTOH, reducing this to much less than 8 minutes will likely mean you don't have the cookies off the last sheet and the *next* sheet ready to go before the current sheet demands attention!]
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On 2/4/2023 9:47 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: > >> On 2/1/2023 1:52 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>> whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 4:30:48 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote: >>>> >>>>> I recall having a pair of electric *socks* as a kid. Powered >>>>> by D cells. Definitely not cherry red :> >>>> >>>> Maybe Nitinol? The flexibility (elastic range) is more important than >>>> other mechanical properties. For a hot-wire cutter, my experimenting >>>> with NiCr was dominated by the way the taut wire didn't hold its length. >>>> >>>> I suspect the familiar wave-surface foam slabs are cut with a straight >>>> (wire? knife?) as the foam was fed from a pair of very bumpy rollers. >>> >>> If you don't mind the increased power dissipation and poorer cut >>> definition, you could use a thicker wire. An adjustable mounting, that >>> allows you to shorten the length of wire in use, will reduce the >>> stresses when cutting thinner material. >>> >>> There ought not to be too much side load on a hot cutting wire unless >>> the machine is being over-worked, but if the force is mainly from one >>> direction, substituting a nichrome ribbon for the wire might give more >>> resistance to bending in that direction. >>> >>> Rather than starting from the resistance of the wire, try looking for a >>> material that has the necessary hot strength/flexibility and then cut a >>> narrow strip of it from some sheet. Match the electrical supply to the >>> material, rather than the other way around. >> >> Or, only apply the material in applications for which it is >> suited! That's the point of my question. > > Just as an aside, telephone drop wires are made of copper-coated high > tensile steel, so they might be worth investigating.I don't have a need/application. Rather, trying to understand how the material can be used, if a potential need *does* arise.
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On Sat, 04 Feb 2023 10:56:40 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:>On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000, Clive Arthur ><clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote: > >>On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >> >><snip> >> >>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>> and loss. >>> >>> RL >> >>But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >>only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. > >My wife would find that crippling. > >But more generally, some European friends of mine have an induction >cook top. It is fast to boil water, but it nonetheless is very >frustrating to cook with, because it has only ten distinct power >levels, so one cannot get the power level just right. > >There are some makes and models that have more like one hundred >levels, which is enough to be stepless in practice. But most have at >most ten levels, and the product brochures are ambiguous here. > >So, if no specific number of power levels is clearly stated in plain >words, most likely it's no more than ten, so move on.Should be able to get different coupling levels by moving the container off-centre or off-surface. Choice of container will also be included in the learning curve. A 'simmering' vessel might just be a poor heater, or sitting on an intervening dinner plate.> >For a cook top in one's possession, one can measure the distinct power >levels by measuring the AC power consumption as one slowly adjusts the >cooking power level while heating a big pot of water. > >Joe GwinnRL
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 16:21:48 +0000, Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:>On 04/02/2023 15:56, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 23:32:41 +0000, Clive Arthur >> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On 03/02/2023 20:21, legg wrote: >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>>> Glass cooktops are a joke, provoking the worst aspects >>>> of the electric stove top cooking w/r to delays, heat tranfer >>>> and loss. >>>> >>>> RL >>> >>> But induction is the bee's knees. I'd never go back to gas, and the >>> only thing I miss is using the flame to char peppers. >> >> My wife would find that crippling. >> >> But more generally, some European friends of mine have an induction >> cook top. It is fast to boil water, but it nonetheless is very >> frustrating to cook with, because it has only ten distinct power >> levels, so one cannot get the power level just right. >> >> There are some makes and models that have more like one hundred >> levels, which is enough to be stepless in practice. But most have at >> most ten levels, and the product brochures are ambiguous here. >> >> So, if no specific number of power levels is clearly stated in plain >> words, most likely it's no more than ten, so move on. >> >> For a cook top in one's possession, one can measure the distinct power >> levels by measuring the AC power consumption as one slowly adjusts the >> cooking power level while heating a big pot of water. >> >> Joe Gwinn > >Ours, a mid range AEG, has half steps from half to 9 so about 18 levels, >plus a 'power boost' which is frighteningly quick. I really like it, >you can dry-fry chopped onion really slowly and get a large pot of spuds >on the go really quickly. It's so much easier to clean than gas and >only gets hot where a hot pan sits.What I found that matched your description is AEG model IKB64431XB. The other AEG models found so far have nine non-zero power modes, plus bower boost. This implication is that nine levels was not enough, so they provided half-steps in between. Maybe that's sufficient.>We did have to lose some of our very old pans though, but they didn't go >to waste.I have some induction-ready pans, but it would be painful to replace all the old non-magnetic pots. For instance, pure copper pans. Fortunately, boring old cast iron does work on induction, econ though cast iron cookware was invented long before electricity was a thing.>After using other types for years, we came across these in holiday >rental accommodation, and were so impressed we decided to change.My European friends served that purpose, as they complained of being unable to adjust the heat level and being forced to constantly readjust the level. I do have a free-standing induction hob (Nuwave PIC Gold, model 30211-BR, designed in US, made in China) that claims about 100 power levels, and this seems to be true, and I can see the power AC power consumption levels changing as one would expect. I don't know if I can tell 50 levels from 100 levels by measuring AC power, but it certainly has many more than 9 non-zero levels. The other issue is that with all-electric, one is SOL if no power. But if non-electronic, a gas stove will still work. With electronically controlled stoves, the key question to ask is if anything will work if no power. Nowadays, a common pattern is that some of the stovetop burners will work in the dark, but the fancy stuff will not. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●February 4, 20232023-02-04
On 2023-02-04, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:> On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 16:21:48 +0000, Clive Arthur > > The other issue is that with all-electric, one is SOL if no power. But > if non-electronic, a gas stove will still work. With electronically > controlled stoves, the key question to ask is if anything will work if > no power. Nowadays, a common pattern is that some of the stovetop > burners will work in the dark, but the fancy stuff will not. >A small disaster that takes out the electricty supply will likely be fixed before anyone starves to death or even looses their freezer and as it's small you can drive (or walk) to the edge of it and buy cooked food. A large disaster will likely take out the natural gas pumps too, like in "Texas 2021" -- Jasen. pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ sʇɥƃᴉɹ ll∀
