On 07/31/2022 02:32 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> søndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com: >> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery >> <rmow...@charter.net> wrote: >> >>> In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com >>> says... >>>> >>>> Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was >>>> almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>> were afraid of them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72 >>> and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >>> and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the >>> vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax >>> by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic >>> engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My >>> first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now >>> I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino >>> world and taught myself how to get around with one. >> Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We >> had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards. >> Things have just got a bit denser. >> >> Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common >> silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips. > > and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs > professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after > designing it all with free tools > > that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago >Hell yeah! If I never see another bottle of ferric chloride it will be too soon. That whole process with silkscreens and photo emulsion will come in handy if I want to go into the Christmas card business.
not OT : fear
Started by ●July 26, 2022
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
In article <4e05ee3b-9e69-4f3d-8fa6-371be61fcf7bn@googlegroups.com>, bill.sloman@ieee.org says...> > The problem isn't the age difference, but the attitude difference. I'm 79, and I happily use my computer to fill out my tax information. > > My father wouldn't have a computer in the house, but as soon as he died, I got my mother to buy one. It took her a while to get to use it. For about a year my nephews - her grandchildren - pulled my e-mails off her computer every week and typed in her responses, but she watched them do and could eventually do it for herself andcompose her own replies, and we swapped e-mails every day for about a decade until senile dementia hit her.> > >Yes, I do have to agree with that. Mostly attitude.Just seems that many older people are too set in their ways. We also have a friend that is 80 and those two grew up as friends. The other was a math high school teacher and uses his computers all the time. Sort of like my mother. She was an execellent cook especially with cakes and cookies. Took her many years after most people had one to get a microwave and a while before she would use it.
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 07/31/2022 03:28 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote: > >> s�ndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com: >>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery >>> <rmow...@charter.net> wrote: >>> >>>> In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com >>>> says... >>>>> >>>>> Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was >>>>> almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>>> were afraid of them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72 >>>> and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >>>> and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the >>>> vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax >>>> by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic >>>> engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My >>>> first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now >>>> I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino >>>> world and taught myself how to get around with one. >>> Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We >>> had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards. >>> Things have just got a bit denser. >>> >>> Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common >>> silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips. >> >> and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs >> professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after >> designing it all with free tools >> >> that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago > > Yes. I wonder how many do. > > My mom set up a revolving credit line with Allied Electronics when I > was a kid. I could order anything, with a modest monthly average, > maybe $15 I recall. >I sort of had a credit line with Les Couch... He might have been one of the original electronic recyclers. His technique was a little crude; heat a circuit board over a barbecue grill until the solder flowed, turn it over, and slam it on the table to see what fell out. The salvage went into labeled but uncatalogued Mason jars stored on shelves in the cellar. At one time I wanted to build a CDI. I needed some ferrite toroids that didn't exactly grow on trees. With the help of a cousin I tracked down one on the many IBM spinoff cottage industries in Kingston that handled ferrite stuff. I drove down, found the guy working out of his garage, and explained what I wanted. Actually selling them would have been a mountain of paperwork so he gave me a bag of 'samples' and wished me luck. I hate to admit it but RatShack was a major source of components. It got a little better when Tandy bought Allied.
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 7/31/2022 5:15 PM, rbowman wrote:> On 07/31/2022 02:09 PM, Don Y wrote: >> On 7/31/2022 12:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote: >>> In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com >>> says... >>>> >>>> Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was >>>> almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>> were afraid of them. >>> >>> It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72 >>> and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >>> and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the >>> vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax >>> by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic >>> engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My >>> first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now >>> I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino >>> world and taught myself how to get around with one. >> >> Many people are afraid of what they don't know. They'd prefer >> to do the same thing over and over again (possibly even becoming >> expert at it) than to RISK trying something new. (OhMiGosh! >> I may *fail*!! Or, *look* inept!) > > Sort of like the Public Service engineers I knew through the IEEE. For my money > when you've seen one HV transmission line you've seen them all but they were > happy with the same old same old.I suspect it is a reflection on the level of risk-taking, self-confidence or *need* for perceived "security". I noticed many of the engineers working at Charles Stark Raving were sad sacks -- they had reasonable job security and decent pay... but, virtually no variety/challenge in their work. Their chances of trying something "new" or radically unconventional were exactly *zero*! Similarly for the folks who work at the local DoD subcontractor. They've gotta know that their technical skills are not very portable (nor likely "current" given the military's conservativism). What do you do when you've got 10, 20, 40 years of that behind you? (Ans: look forward to even more of it ahead!) I always want something that lies just beyond my "100% confident of success" level of complexity/novelty... "Let's make it INTERESTING!" It makes the resulting success all the more savory!
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:> We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being > that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start > their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to > choose > a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to > that, everyone is largely treated the same)That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk stumble along.
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 07/31/2022 03:32 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT), Simon S Aysdie > <gwhite@ti.com> wrote: > >> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: >>> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ >>> >>> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>> children but are afraid of life. >>> >>> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>> warps prudent judgement. >>> >>> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>> >>> People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >>> Especially for RF parts. >>> >>> Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft! >>> >>> I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear >>> circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies. >> >> PUT YOUR MASK ON, JOHN!!!!! > > I only masked for a couple of very good restaurants, which was silly > because as soon as they served water everyone took their masks off. > > Some people are still masking, even outdoors. I guess they will for > the rest of their lives. >I went to an Irish festival in the park yesterday and there were only a few maskers. Some of them lost the masks as the day went on. The 100 degree weather might have been a factor. I can't imagine...
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:> On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote: >> We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start >> their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >> choose >> a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to >> that, everyone is largely treated the same) > > That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk > stumble along.We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner). The goal of the education system should be to provide the best education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student. Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 07/31/2022 05:02 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:> On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote: >> On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote: >>> Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: >>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >> >> I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker >> culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a >> nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser >> cutters and so forth. > > The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing > video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves > dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how > to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything. > > Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use > CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use > a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never > fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't > understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want > to customize drones. > > Sad really.I've gotten the impression from Make Magazine that many are Gen Whatever, not kids. It's probably like the old R/C magazines with detailed plans for models constructed from balsa and tissue. I think the ratio of magazines sold versus models constructed would be high.
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:>On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote: >> On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote: >>> We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start >>> their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>> choose >>> a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to >>> that, everyone is largely treated the same) >> >> That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk >> stumble along. > >We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject >areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a >kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system >and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a >more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner). > >The goal of the education system should be to provide the best >education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student. > >Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:02:36 +1000, Clifford Heath <no_spam@please.net> wrote:>On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote: >> On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote: >>> Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: >>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >> >> I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker >> culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a >> nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser >> cutters and so forth. > >The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing >video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves >dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how >to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything. > >Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use >CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use >a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never >fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't >understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want >to customize drones. > >Sad really.A manual mill is better to learn on. You can feel the forces. We donated our old milling machine to a local maker shop. Now we have a classic Bridgeport and a new Tormach.
