On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 2:10:59 AM UTC, bitrex wrote:> On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote: > >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > >> > >>> On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote: > >>>> > >>>> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ > >>>> > >>>> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected > >>>> children but are afraid of life. > >>>> > >>>> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear > >>>> warps prudent judgement. > >>>> > >>>> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 > >>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and > >>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see > >>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. > >>> > >>> I guess you get what you pay for > >> Interns are cheap and most don't last long. > > > > Maybe during the interview, you ask them to > > "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse, > > or they do but get really upset then don't hire > > them. :0) > > > > I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc, > > were a rite of passage for young experimenter. > > Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity. > > But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't > > say such things :-X > > > Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into > software than hardware these days. > > Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt > to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way > better, too.Indeed, SW, and actually digital platforms are ginormous. I can relate that finding data privacy & security folks is a challenge. I agree with John, in a general way (but "blowing things up" without further explanation can be misconstrued! - but i take his meaning). Those early *but safe* shocks gave me courage to later build more dangerous stuff. And with the willingness also came the cautiousness. Regards, Rich S
not OT : fear
Started by ●July 26, 2022
Reply by ●July 26, 20222022-07-26
Reply by ●July 27, 20222022-07-27
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 19:06:26 -0700 (PDT), Rich S <richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:>On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >> >> >On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote: >> >> >> >> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ >> >> >> >> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >> >> children but are afraid of life. >> >> >> >> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >> >> warps prudent judgement. >> >> >> >> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >> >> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >> >> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >> >> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >> > >> >I guess you get what you pay for >> Interns are cheap and most don't last long. > >Maybe during the interview, you ask them to >"taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse, >or they do but get really upset then don't hire > them. :0)"How many other people have licked that battery today?"
Reply by ●July 28, 20222022-07-28
On 26/07/2022 23:16, rbowman wrote:> On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. > > On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for > 120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals. > It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his > '60s and hadn't killed himself... > > It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling > you didn't expect.I had to administer first aid to a US service engineer who did the same test for live trick on UK mains. The resulting shock threw him across the floor turning his face ashen grey. Very much more bite at 240vac. Warm sweet tea did the trick but I don't think he will ever test for mains with a wet finger ever again. These days even using an old neon mains testing screwdriver (as I do) is frowned upon H&S wise. The anglepoise lamp in my first student room had a live chassis so that screwdriver has saved me from at least one potentially serious shock. I once found a telescope with a live chassis too, fortunately I was stood on wooden stepladders with no dew when I noticed the tingle. Electric shocks at height up ladders do not go well together. Later in research one of my friends was unlucky enough to find himself on the wrong end of a live Jesus lead - that caused serious damage to his hand from burns before someone could find and unplug the other end. -- Regards, Martin Brown
Reply by ●July 28, 20222022-07-28
Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:> On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote: > > I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 > > volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and > > masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see > > how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.> On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for > 120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals. > It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his > '60s and hadn't killed himself... > > It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling > you didn't expect.I use my bare fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won't even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had to bring it to my friend to unmount it from the car.I had a regulator that was connected to a stack of 12v batteries fail. It was spectacular, I remember seeing the shadow of the person next to me on the wall. The arc current was under the trip current of the breaker. DC is much different than AC, never crosses zero volt. Cheers -- ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
Reply by ●July 29, 20222022-07-29
Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote: >> On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> > I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >> > volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >> > masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >> > how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >> On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for >> 120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals. >> It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his >> '60s and hadn't killed himself... >> >> It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling >> you didn't expect. > > I use my bare fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won't even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had to bring it to my friend to unmount it from the car.Any what did you gain by just ignoring the gloves you probably had next to you? How many volts DC can you let go of? It won't take much leakage on a 400 volt connector to ruin your day.
Reply by ●July 30, 20222022-07-30
On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 2:06:29 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > > > > >On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote: > > >> > > >> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ > > >> > > >> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected > > >> children but are afraid of life. > > >> > > >> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear > > >> warps prudent judgement. > > >> > > >> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 > > >> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and > > >> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see > > >> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. > > > > > >I guess you get what you pay for > > Interns are cheap and most don't last long.> Maybe during the interview, you ask them to > "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse, > or they do but get really upset then don't hire > them. :0)[Amending Myself] Or maybe you DO hire them, as a PCB layout designer, or Documentation, or anything but hands-on circuit work. Someone could be a real star but just not comfortable with (what they consider to be) "overt" risk. Questioning their risk-aversion might limit your possible talent pool. Some tech companies (used to?) try to find the right fit for someone, if he/she had talent.
Reply by ●July 30, 20222022-07-30
On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:> On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote: >> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>> >>>> On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ >>>>> >>>>> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>>>> children but are afraid of life. >>>>> >>>>> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>> warps prudent judgement. >>>>> >>>>> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>> >>>> I guess you get what you pay for >>> Interns are cheap and most don't last long. >> >> Maybe during the interview, you ask them to >> "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse, >> or they do but get really upset then don't hire >> them. :0) >> >> I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc, >> were a rite of passage for young experimenter. >> Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity. >> But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't >> say such things :-X >> > > Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into > software than hardware these days. > > Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt > to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way > better, too. >The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and Hardware is becoming extinct: Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ Grapgh showing the trend: https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F
Reply by ●July 30, 20222022-07-30
On Sunday, 31 July 2022 at 00:09:41 UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote: > > On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote: > >> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote: > >>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ > >>>>> > >>>>> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected > >>>>> children but are afraid of life. > >>>>> > >>>>> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear > >>>>> warps prudent judgement. > >>>>> > >>>>> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 > >>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and > >>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see > >>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. > >>>> > >>>> I guess you get what you pay for > >>> Interns are cheap and most don't last long. > >> > >> Maybe during the interview, you ask them to > >> "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse, > >> or they do but get really upset then don't hire > >> them. :0) > >> > >> I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc, > >> were a rite of passage for young experimenter. > >> Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity. > >> But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't > >> say such things :-X > >> > > > > Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into > > software than hardware these days. > > > > Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt > > to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way > > better, too. > > > The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and > Hardware is becoming extinct: > > Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: > > https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ > > Grapgh showing the trend: > > https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2FGrapgh ???
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:> On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote: >> On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote: >>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/ >>>>>> >>>>>> What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>>>>> children but are afraid of life. >>>>>> >>>>>> Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>>> warps prudent judgement. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>>> >>>>> I guess you get what you pay for >>>> Interns are cheap and most don't last long. >>> >>> Maybe during the interview, you ask them to >>> "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse, >>> or they do but get really upset then don't hire >>> them. :0) >>> >>> I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc, >>> were a rite of passage for young experimenter. >>> Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity. >>> But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't >>> say such things :-X >>> >> >> Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into >> software than hardware these days. >> >> Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 >> volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually >> pays way better, too. >> > > The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and > Hardware is becoming extinct: > > Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: > > https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I'll confess that with ebooks I don't physically visit the library often. Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a 10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do. CAI, cat-back, overdrive pulley, and other minor stuff.
Reply by ●July 31, 20222022-07-31
On 7/30/2022 10:37 PM, rbowman wrote:> On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote: >> On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:>> The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and >> Hardware is becoming extinct:Verilog, VHDL>> Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: >> >> https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ > > I think the article has a valid point.I think you're ignoring the paradigm shift. One could rewrite this: "For most of the history of electronics, there was a clear on-ramp for this, and an industry that didn't need to sell itself because it was inherently cool for geeks. Look at the biographies of the great names in electronics, such as Intel co-founder Robert Noyce or the father of the information age Claude Shannon, and you find them as teenage geeks pulling apart, then rebuilding, then designing radios and guitar amplifiers. The post-war generation tore down military surplus gear to teach themselves how it worked and mine components to build their own inventions." replacing references to pulling apart (DISASSEMBLing!) then rebuilding hardware (SOFTWARE). How many howto's cover hacking a serial console onto an existing COTS product and then poking around inside to enable features -- or even reimage the firmware. Sadly, "hardware types" are likely clueless as to how these things are done. Who do you think comes up with workarounds for the multitude of copy protection schemes that have been deployed? Who do you think uses the sources to FOSS products to modify (tinker) with them and add value/functionality that isn't present in the original offering? It's like a sculpter complaining about all the young kids taking up PAINTING (for "fear" of a hammer and chisel?). A fair bit of arrogance, there ("What *I* know is important; what I don't, isn't!") Sadly, "coders" probably take on the greatest risk as their efforts won't see success or failure for many months/years (a power supply likely blows pretty quick!). And, most have no control over the hardware that will host their code. [How often do you release a hardware design to manufacturing without having the design finished, implemented and tested? How often do you DELAY the product release until the same can be said of the software? Who takes up the slack, do you redesign the hardware to accommodate the FINISHED/tested software?] How much TEXT will the application require? DATA? Real time? What recourse if you exceed the resources available -- will they reengineer the hardware to fit your ACTUAL needs, /ex post factum/? What's the maximum stack penetration for THIS task? In what circumstances? How does that differ for each of the other tasks? Have you configured them as-needed? Or, adopted a one-size-fits-all approach? What happens to the code size if I add a single call to printf()? How long will XXX take to execute? What sort of latency will the user experience between his taking an action and the device responding to it -- in a meaningful way? If <someone> plugs your 120VAC appliance into 220VAC mains and the power supply blows up, catches fire, etc. IT'S THE FAULT OF THE USER! But, if the user enters an unusual keystroke sequence and the device crashes, IT'S BUGGY SOFTWARE!> I've got hopes for the maker culture but > I don't know how many participate.I actually think software makes engineering more accessible to folks. The problem I see is that it makes *programming* more accessible and sidesteps the engineering aspect of software. You *design* software just like you design hardware. You don't just sit down and "write code" (that's what CODERS do!)> Our new library has a nicely equipped > makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser cutters and so forth. I > should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I'll confess that with > ebooks I don't physically visit the library often.Damn near anyone can afford a (used) laptop. And, with it, you can learn a multitude of languages, programming skills, styles, etc. AND ACTUALLY CREATE "PRODUCTS"! Buying a scope doesn't eliminate the need for a signal generator. Or, freq counter. Or, soldering iron. Or, mantis. Or... Where do you put all these things? Maker shops attract folks who can't afford the equipment or the *space* for same in their own condos, appartments, dorm rooms, etc. You don't see folks scampering for space to set up a laptop! We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other, pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries, classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to control their "robots" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their strategies against those of their friends/classmates. We use this as a teaching platform to introduce programming AND algorithm design to the students. It's not "in a vacuum" as you are competing with another algorithm; if you use a sloppy implementation of the same algorithm as your competitor, he will beat you! So, you have to manage time resources as well as get the logic correct. We expose different aspects of the problem space that the kids might not appreciate ahead of time which could cause naive algorithms to fail. So, while learning "how to code (syntax)", and "how to design an algorithm", they also get to see examples of how their algorithms can fail due to an inadequate understanding of the problem space. Challenge your assumptions! At the end of the course, the students "load" their algorithms into life size (5 ft) robots and watch them compete -- more interesting than watching a red dot and a blue dot interacting in a virtual arena on a laptop screen! Of course, we could let each kid build a robot. But, that takes a lot of resources, likely takes a lot of SPACE, probably can't be done in the student's *home*, etc. And, in relative terms, they'll likely not learn as much from that physical effort than from the intellectual effort of building an *algorithm*.> Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a 10 year > old Civic, there isn't much he can do. CAI, cat-back, overdrive pulley, and > other minor stuff.Exactly. I'd be thrilled to have just complete schematics for a modern car's ECUs. How much can I push performance/efficiency by *micromanaging* the combustion cycle? What can I learn from watching the spark events? I've had discussions with a friend (who's into the pro-side of NASCAR) about how you could tweek the vehicle's performance "intelligently" (beyond "managing airflow") to give the driver one extra tool on the track (let his mind do the high-level tradeoffs while the ECU does the micromanagement under his direction). Obviously, car manufacturers target an "average" consumer with their designs. Imagine working WITH the *particular* consumer...
