On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:37:20 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> On 18/04/2022 23.49, Ricky wrote: > > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote: > >>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: > >>>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > >>>> ... > >>>>> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal. > >>>> ... > >>>> > >>>> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater. > >>>> > >>>> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power. > >>>> > >>>> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do. > >>> > >>> I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast. As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater. > >> I have seen it active many times, and also when ambient temperatures are > >> 20 degrees. > >> > >> See plot of lifetime vs temperature here: > >> > >> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jay-Lee-27/publication/260030309/figure/download/fig2/AS:296997371301891@1447821099785/Lithium-ion-battery-life-vs-temperature-and-charging-rate-36-39-44-45.png > >> > >> ESR: > >> > >> https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0c9f4e352906f965c5327221f6d49854?rik=KR97DtfMdiFdaQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avdweb.nl%2fArticle_files%2fSolarbike%2fBatteries%2fLiFePO4-internal-resistance-versus-temperature.jpg&ehk=NHkwR3Qn%2bfG2QGCx8OagT20WqS3Cyb6azCKOMcvKkEs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1 > >> > >> The point is that during charging you add say 60kW of energy. If you can > >> increase the efficiency during charging that then looses less heat than > >> used for warming the battery, you both save energy and prolong the life > >> of the battery > > > > If that is the case, the error in logic is that you need to warm the battery prior to charging. The battery would be warmed sufficiently while charging by the waste heat without using additional heat. > > > If you charge the battery without preheat, the temperature due to higher > ESR in the beginning is not uniform (has not spread out), so you wont > get the benefit.Sorry, why is it not spread out? Every cell has ESR. What is not uniform?> When the car prepares the charging, it does so at least > 20 minutes before start of chargeOk.???> > In the Tesla, the battery is warmed at the expense of otherwise useful energy, because it shortens the charging time. Time connected to the charger is considered a "precious" commodity since they are expensive units and there are only so many. > > > > Where did you get your data? The graph doesn't even say what type of battery it is for. > > > I just randomly looked up Lithium Ion data. They are the same > technology, so should be comparable to the Tesla batteryThere are different lithium ion batteries. The internal resistance graph is for LiFePO4 which is a less often used battery type I believe. The curves will not be the same for the cobalt nickle batteries more often used. I'm not sure they all have the same curve for wear over temperature which is the curve with no description. -- Rick C. --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Tesla is fast
Started by ●April 13, 2022
Reply by ●April 18, 20222022-04-18
Reply by ●April 18, 20222022-04-18
On 19/04/2022 01.50, Ricky wrote:> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:37:20 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: >> On 18/04/2022 23.49, Ricky wrote: >>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: >>>> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote: >>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: >>>>>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: >>>>>> ... >>>>>>> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal. >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater. >>>>>> >>>>>> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power. >>>>>> >>>>>> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do. >>>>> >>>>> I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast. As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater. >>>> I have seen it active many times, and also when ambient temperatures are >>>> 20 degrees. >>>> >>>> See plot of lifetime vs temperature here: >>>> >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jay-Lee-27/publication/260030309/figure/download/fig2/AS:296997371301891@1447821099785/Lithium-ion-battery-life-vs-temperature-and-charging-rate-36-39-44-45.png >>>> >>>> ESR: >>>> >>>> https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0c9f4e352906f965c5327221f6d49854?rik=KR97DtfMdiFdaQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avdweb.nl%2fArticle_files%2fSolarbike%2fBatteries%2fLiFePO4-internal-resistance-versus-temperature.jpg&ehk=NHkwR3Qn%2bfG2QGCx8OagT20WqS3Cyb6azCKOMcvKkEs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1 >>>> >>>> The point is that during charging you add say 60kW of energy. If you can >>>> increase the efficiency during charging that then looses less heat than >>>> used for warming the battery, you both save energy and prolong the life >>>> of the battery >>> >>> If that is the case, the error in logic is that you need to warm the battery prior to charging. The battery would be warmed sufficiently while charging by the waste heat without using additional heat. >>> >> If you charge the battery without preheat, the temperature due to higher >> ESR in the beginning is not uniform (has not spread out), so you wont >> get the benefit. > > Sorry, why is it not spread out? Every cell has ESR. What is not uniform? > >Thermal time constant>> When the car prepares the charging, it does so at least >> 20 minutes before start of charge > > Ok.??? > > >>> In the Tesla, the battery is warmed at the expense of otherwise useful energy, because it shortens the charging time. Time connected to the charger is considered a "precious" commodity since they are expensive units and there are only so many. >>> >>> Where did you get your data? The graph doesn't even say what type of battery it is for. >>> >> I just randomly looked up Lithium Ion data. They are the same >> technology, so should be comparable to the Tesla battery > > There are different lithium ion batteries. The internal resistance graph is for LiFePO4 which is a less often used battery type I believe. The curves will not be the same for the cobalt nickle batteries more often used. I'm not sure they all have the same curve for wear over temperature which is the curve with no description. >
Reply by ●April 18, 20222022-04-18
On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:38:03 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> On 19/04/2022 01.50, Ricky wrote: > > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:37:20 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >> On 18/04/2022 23.49, Ricky wrote: > >>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >>>> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote: > >>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: > >>>>>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>>> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal. > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do. > >>>>> > >>>>> I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast. As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater. > >>>> I have seen it active many times, and also when ambient temperatures are > >>>> 20 degrees. > >>>> > >>>> See plot of lifetime vs temperature here: > >>>> > >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jay-Lee-27/publication/260030309/figure/download/fig2/AS:296997371301891@1447821099785/Lithium-ion-battery-life-vs-temperature-and-charging-rate-36-39-44-45.png > >>>> > >>>> ESR: > >>>> > >>>> https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0c9f4e352906f965c5327221f6d49854?rik=KR97DtfMdiFdaQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avdweb.nl%2fArticle_files%2fSolarbike%2fBatteries%2fLiFePO4-internal-resistance-versus-temperature.jpg&ehk=NHkwR3Qn%2bfG2QGCx8OagT20WqS3Cyb6azCKOMcvKkEs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1 > >>>> > >>>> The point is that during charging you add say 60kW of energy. If you can > >>>> increase the efficiency during charging that then looses less heat than > >>>> used for warming the battery, you both save energy and prolong the life > >>>> of the battery > >>> > >>> If that is the case, the error in logic is that you need to warm the battery prior to charging. The battery would be warmed sufficiently while charging by the waste heat without using additional heat. > >>> > >> If you charge the battery without preheat, the temperature due to higher > >> ESR in the beginning is not uniform (has not spread out), so you wont > >> get the benefit. > > > > Sorry, why is it not spread out? Every cell has ESR. What is not uniform? > > > > > Thermal time constantYou seem to be thinking the heat is not internal, but external, like sitting in the hot sun. Or I'm completely not understanding what you are saying. The heat generated from using the battery will be from every cell. So every cell has the same thermal time constant and very well matched temperatures. It would be externally supplied heat that might be less uniform. What am I not getting? -- Rick C. --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 11:51:19 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:38:03 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > On 19/04/2022 01.50, Ricky wrote: > > > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:37:20 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > >> On 18/04/2022 23.49, Ricky wrote: > > >>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > >>>> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote: > > >>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: > > >>>>>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:<snip>> > Thermal time constant. > > You seem to be thinking the heat is not internal, but external, like sitting in the hot sun. Or I'm completely not understanding what you are saying. The heat generated from using the battery will be from every cell. So every cell has the same thermal time constant and very well matched temperatures. It would be externally supplied heat that might be less uniform. > > What am I not getting?The cells at the centre of the battery pack have longer thermal time constant than the cells at the surface - they have a higher thermal resistance to ambient, even if the heat capacity of each cell (temperature rise per joule dissipated) is the same (which it ought to be). The cells in the centre of the battery will get hotter than the cells on the surface. Since this will lower their ESR it makes the whole calculation even more complicated, because they won't be dissipating as much heat once the core of the battery has warmed up. -- Bil Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:25:35 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 11:51:19 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote: > > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:38:03 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > On 19/04/2022 01.50, Ricky wrote: > > > > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:37:20 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > >> On 18/04/2022 23.49, Ricky wrote: > > > >>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > >>>> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote: > > > >>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: > > > >>>>>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > <snip> > > > > Thermal time constant. > > > > You seem to be thinking the heat is not internal, but external, like sitting in the hot sun. Or I'm completely not understanding what you are saying. The heat generated from using the battery will be from every cell. So every cell has the same thermal time constant and very well matched temperatures. It would be externally supplied heat that might be less uniform. > > > > What am I not getting? > The cells at the centre of the battery pack have longer thermal time constant than the cells at the surface - they have a higher thermal resistance to ambient, even if the heat capacity of each cell (temperature rise per joule dissipated) is the same (which it ought to be).Ambient??? What ambient??? These cell are all cooled/heated by water flowing past them. Ambient has very little to do with this when driving the car. Oh, and the "center" of the pack is of little consequence, since all the cells are adjacent to "ambient" at the ends since they are only stacked one high. They cool or warm all night, so by morning they are pretty uniform. They are heated INTERNALLY from the current flowing through them in use. Each cell receives the same amount of heat from use. There is very little, if any, gradient of temperature.> The cells in the centre of the battery will get hotter than the cells on the surface. Since this will lower their ESR it makes the whole calculation even more complicated, because they won't be dissipating as much heat once the core of the battery has warmed up.No, the cells in the center of the pack do not get hotter. If there is significant temperature differences, the battery pack gets unbalanced and it impacts the performance and life of the cells. There is virtually no extra cooling/heating at the periphery compared to the cooling/heating from the water flowing through the battery pack. Tesla did a great job designing their batteries and this is an important aspect they did a great job on. Oddly enough, it's the UI they seem to have whacked. -- Rick C. -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:26:31 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >> >> >> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: >> >> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: >> >> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> >> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> >> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >> >> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >> >> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - >> >> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. >> >> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term >> >> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. >> >> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... >> >> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? >> >> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. >> >> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. >> >> > >> >> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day >> >> >> >> No wonder it costs so much to transport things. >> > >> > Yeah, we don't need safe drivers. We need cheap, disposable drivers. >> We need to let people make heir own choices. The nanny society is beyond a joke. > > LOL! So no rules? No regulations? Perhaps you are not aware that we typically start with no rules. Then we have problems and create rules to deal with them. So now we have driver's licenses that you must qualify for, rules of driving, rules of commercial driving where you are piloting 40 tons of vehicle at 65 mph. Someone, somewhere thinks it is a good idea for the drivers to be adequately rested. Then there's you.And the rules create more problems than they solve. People are not animals, they don't need to be monitored and controlled like children. 99% of us are perfectly moral folk who wouldn't cause harm. Don't you trust yourself to behave?
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:40:23 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:26:31 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: > >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > >> >> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > >> >> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > >> >> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > >> >> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > >> >> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: > >> >> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > >> >> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > >> >> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > >> >> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. > >> >> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term > >> >> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. > >> >> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... > >> >> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? > >> >> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. > >> >> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. > >> >> > > >> >> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day > >> >> > >> >> No wonder it costs so much to transport things. > >> > > >> > Yeah, we don't need safe drivers. We need cheap, disposable drivers. > >> We need to let people make heir own choices. The nanny society is beyond a joke. > > > > LOL! So no rules? No regulations? Perhaps you are not aware that we typically start with no rules. Then we have problems and create rules to deal with them. So now we have driver's licenses that you must qualify for, rules of driving, rules of commercial driving where you are piloting 40 tons of vehicle at 65 mph. Someone, somewhere thinks it is a good idea for the drivers to be adequately rested. Then there's you. > And the rules create more problems than they solve. People are not animals, they don't need to be monitored and controlled like children. 99% of us are perfectly moral folk who wouldn't cause harm. Don't you trust yourself to behave?That's where you are wrong. Everyone breaks the rules even with the threat of punishment. We weight the cost and the likelihood of getting caught against the benefits of getting away with an act and behave appropriately. I am quite certain that if we did away with speed limits, there would be much worse behavior on the roads and many more accidents and deaths. The rules may create problems, but most people feel requiring truckers to take appropriate rest breaks is better than seeing more people die on the highways. Heck, even factory workers get mandatory breaks by law. Without laws requiring some level of consideration of the workers, we would still have the sweatshops and child labor conditions of a hundred years ago. BTW, people *are* animals and mostly do need to be treated as such. I guess you didn't pass biology, eh? The fact that you are not aware of any of this, speaks volumes about your judgement. -- Rick C. -+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:46:11 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:40:23 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:26:31 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: >> >> >> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> >> >> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - >> >> >> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. >> >> >> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term >> >> >> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. >> >> >> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... >> >> >> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? >> >> >> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. >> >> >> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day >> >> >> >> >> >> No wonder it costs so much to transport things. >> >> > >> >> > Yeah, we don't need safe drivers. We need cheap, disposable drivers. >> >> We need to let people make heir own choices. The nanny society is beyond a joke. >> > >> > LOL! So no rules? No regulations? Perhaps you are not aware that we typically start with no rules. Then we have problems and create rules to deal with them. So now we have driver's licenses that you must qualify for, rules of driving, rules of commercial driving where you are piloting 40 tons of vehicle at 65 mph. Someone, somewhere thinks it is a good idea for the drivers to be adequately rested. Then there's you. >> And the rules create more problems than they solve. People are not animals, they don't need to be monitored and controlled like children. 99% of us are perfectly moral folk who wouldn't cause harm. Don't you trust yourself to behave? > > That's where you are wrong. Everyone breaks the rules even with the threat of punishment. We weight the cost and the likelihood of getting caught against the benefits of getting away with an act and behave appropriately. I am quite certain that if we did away with speed limits, there would be much worse behavior on the roads and many more accidents and deaths.Bullshit. I ignore the speed limits unless I think there's a camera or cop around. If there was no speed limit, I wouldn't waste brain power checking and would concentrate on the road more. And it's been shown by a government study that only 4% of accidents are caused by speeding. But for some reason people like you think speeding is a bad thing. You also don't understand Libertarianism, it's not a free for all you can murder folk, it's about removing rules from things where we don't need them.> The rules may create problems, but most people feel requiring truckers to take appropriate rest breaks is better than seeing more people die on the highways.No, you shouldn't assume someone will crash without a rest break. You should get him in trouble if he crashes, for whatever reason. What if the rest break involves him playing football? I bet that's not on the tachograph.> Heck, even factory workers get mandatory breaks by law. Without laws requiring some level of consideration of the workers, we would still have the sweatshops and child labor conditions of a hundred years ago.If I want to work in a sweatshop I should be allowed to do so. If I don't like the conditions, I'm free to leave. I'm not chained up am I?> BTW, people *are* animals and mostly do need to be treated as such. I guess you didn't pass biology, eh?Your pedantry isn't helping this discussion. Our brains function nothing like them. A dog for example will react to something on emotion, and attack. We think first.> The fact that you are not aware of any of this, speaks volumes about your judgement.Repetition of the above ignored.
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:46:11 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:40:23 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: > >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:26:31 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: > >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: > >> >> >> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: > >> >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > >> >> >> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. > >> >> >> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term > >> >> >> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. > >> >> >> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... > >> >> >> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? > >> >> >> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. > >> >> >> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day > >> >> >> > >> >> >> No wonder it costs so much to transport things. > >> >> > > >> >> > Yeah, we don't need safe drivers. We need cheap, disposable drivers. > >> >> We need to let people make heir own choices. The nanny society is beyond a joke. > >> > > >> > LOL! So no rules? No regulations? Perhaps you are not aware that we typically start with no rules. Then we have problems and create rules to deal with them. So now we have driver's licenses that you must qualify for, rules of driving, rules of commercial driving where you are piloting 40 tons of vehicle at 65 mph. Someone, somewhere thinks it is a good idea for the drivers to be adequately rested. Then there's you. > >> And the rules create more problems than they solve. People are not animals, they don't need to be monitored and controlled like children. 99% of us are perfectly moral folk who wouldn't cause harm. Don't you trust yourself to behave? > > > > That's where you are wrong. Everyone breaks the rules even with the threat of punishment. We weight the cost and the likelihood of getting caught against the benefits of getting away with an act and behave appropriately. I am quite certain that if we did away with speed limits, there would be much worse behavior on the roads and many more accidents and deaths. > Bullshit. I ignore the speed limits unless I think there's a camera or cop around. If there was no speed limit, I wouldn't waste brain power checking and would concentrate on the road more. > > And it's been shown by a government study that only 4% of accidents are caused by speeding. But for some reason people like you think speeding is a bad thing.And for some reason, people like you fail to understand that is WITH laws. Without laws about speeding the numbers would be much worse. But it doesn't surprise me you think this way. If nothing, you are consistent.> You also don't understand Libertarianism, it's not a free for all you can murder folk, it's about removing rules from things where we don't need them.You had not mentioned Libertarianism until now. Why did you bring it up? I've not been discussing it.> > The rules may create problems, but most people feel requiring truckers to take appropriate rest breaks is better than seeing more people die on the highways. > No, you shouldn't assume someone will crash without a rest break. You should get him in trouble if he crashes, for whatever reason. What if the rest break involves him playing football? I bet that's not on the tachograph.Unfortunately, once they have the crash and kill someone, it's too late. Laws are to prevent harm. Enforcement is too late, but the threat of enforcement is what gives the laws an impact. Otherwise they are just recommendations. A trucker doesn't need to sleep after driving for the max time. He just has to stop driving and do something else. Talking about playing football is just being silly, but again, consistent for you. They don't assume anyone will crash without a break. They *know* it will happen to some, too many. Those laws were passed and are enforced to prevent history from repeating.> > Heck, even factory workers get mandatory breaks by law. Without laws requiring some level of consideration of the workers, we would still have the sweatshops and child labor conditions of a hundred years ago. > If I want to work in a sweatshop I should be allowed to do so. If I don't like the conditions, I'm free to leave. I'm not chained up am I?If you wish to work in a sweat shop, please do so. It will need to be in another country to be legal, but I'm ok with you leaving here. But, again, you think everything is about you. There are plenty of people who don't want to work in those conditions. If they are legal, it will be hard to find better work. So others *won't* have a choice.> > BTW, people *are* animals and mostly do need to be treated as such. I guess you didn't pass biology, eh? > Your pedantry isn't helping this discussion. Our brains function nothing like them. A dog for example will react to something on emotion, and attack. We think first.LOL! Nearly everything you say is emotion. It has been shown time and time again that humans are bags of emotion tied up with little, tiny strings of thought. That's why so many were manipulated by Trmp.> > The fact that you are not aware of any of this, speaks volumes about your judgement. > Repetition of the above ignored.Exactly! You love proving me right, don't you? -- Rick C. -++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●April 19, 20222022-04-19
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:19:08 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:46:11 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:40:23 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:26:31 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term >> >> >> >> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. >> >> >> >> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... >> >> >> >> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? >> >> >> >> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. >> >> >> >> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No wonder it costs so much to transport things. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Yeah, we don't need safe drivers. We need cheap, disposable drivers. >> >> >> We need to let people make heir own choices. The nanny society is beyond a joke. >> >> > >> >> > LOL! So no rules? No regulations? Perhaps you are not aware that we typically start with no rules. Then we have problems and create rules to deal with them. So now we have driver's licenses that you must qualify for, rules of driving, rules of commercial driving where you are piloting 40 tons of vehicle at 65 mph. Someone, somewhere thinks it is a good idea for the drivers to be adequately rested. Then there's you. >> >> And the rules create more problems than they solve. People are not animals, they don't need to be monitored and controlled like children. 99% of us are perfectly moral folk who wouldn't cause harm. Don't you trust yourself to behave? >> > >> > That's where you are wrong. Everyone breaks the rules even with the threat of punishment. We weight the cost and the likelihood of getting caught against the benefits of getting away with an act and behave appropriately. I am quite certain that if we did away with speed limits, there would be much worse behavior on the roads and many more accidents and deaths. >> Bullshit. I ignore the speed limits unless I think there's a camera or cop around. If there was no speed limit, I wouldn't waste brain power checking and would concentrate on the road more. >> >> And it's been shown by a government study that only 4% of accidents are caused by speeding. But for some reason people like you think speeding is a bad thing. > > And for some reason, people like you fail to understand that is WITH laws. Without laws about speeding the numbers would be much worse. But it doesn't surprise me you think this way. If nothing, you are consistent.People speed if they want to, the ones that stick to the limit do so because they think it's the right thing to do, not because it's the law. And think about my 4% again. Do you know hoe many people speed? Again, a government stat - a third. So even if everyone sped, that would make it 12% of accidents caused by speeding, the rest by morons doing something stupid.>> You also don't understand Libertarianism, it's not a free for all you can murder folk, it's about removing rules from things where we don't need them. > > You had not mentioned Libertarianism until now. Why did you bring it up? I've not been discussing it.That's the name of what we're discussing you ignoranus.>> > The rules may create problems, but most people feel requiring truckers to take appropriate rest breaks is better than seeing more people die on the highways. >> No, you shouldn't assume someone will crash without a rest break. You should get him in trouble if he crashes, for whatever reason. What if the rest break involves him playing football? I bet that's not on the tachograph. > > Unfortunately, once they have the crash and kill someone, it's too late. Laws are to prevent harm. Enforcement is too late, but the threat of enforcement is what gives the laws an impact. Otherwise they are just recommendations.Stop being such a pansy. This way would work far batter - instead of getting an insurance premium rise when you cause a crash, no matter how minor, get points on your license. X number of crashes and you're off.> A trucker doesn't need to sleep after driving for the max time. He just has to stop driving and do something else. Talking about playing football is just being silly, but again, consistent for you.You really are stupid, do you seriously think using your brain for something else is a rest?!> They don't assume anyone will crash without a break. They *know* it will happen to some, too many. Those laws were passed and are enforced to prevent history from repeating.They assume because it happens to some it happens to all. I might crash because I didn't get any sleep last night, well before my break time. Only taking account of driving time is insanity.>> > Heck, even factory workers get mandatory breaks by law. Without laws requiring some level of consideration of the workers, we would still have the sweatshops and child labor conditions of a hundred years ago. >> If I want to work in a sweatshop I should be allowed to do so. If I don't like the conditions, I'm free to leave. I'm not chained up am I? > > If you wish to work in a sweat shop, please do so. It will need to be in another country to be legal, but I'm ok with you leaving here. But, again, you think everything is about you. There are plenty of people who don't want to work in those conditions.I never said they had to did I?> If they are legal, it will be hard to find better work. So others *won't* have a choice.If you're good enough to get better work, you do so. If you're not good enough, it's better to work in a sweat shop than be unemployed.>> > BTW, people *are* animals and mostly do need to be treated as such. I guess you didn't pass biology, eh? >> Your pedantry isn't helping this discussion. Our brains function nothing like them. A dog for example will react to something on emotion, and attack. We think first. > > LOL! Nearly everything you say is emotion. It has been shown time and time again that humans are bags of emotion tied up with little, tiny strings of thought.No it hasn't. Compare us to animals as I suggested.> That's why so many were manipulated by Trmp.Wow, completely backwards train of thought on your part. The emotional ones are the lefties. Those who think with logic are right wing. You're the touchy feely type that think it's ok to steal my taxes to pay for your problems.>> > The fact that you are not aware of any of this, speaks volumes about your judgement. >> Repetition of the above ignored. > > Exactly! You love proving me right, don't you?Are you fucking stupid or what? All I said here is you're saying the same thing twice, therefore there's no point in me answering it again. That is all, stop reading anything else into it.
