Tesla is fast

17.04.22 06:57, Anthony William Sloman  wrote:
>On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:55:09 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 12:59:46 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote: 
>> > Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
>> > >> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
>> > >> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: 
>> > >> > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
>> > >> > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
>> > >> > > 
>> > >> > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
>> > >> > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
>> > >> > > 
>> > >> > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
>> > >> > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. 
>> > >> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term 
>> > > 
>> > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. 
>> > 18 motors for an "18 wheeler" makes no sense at all. Look at the axle 
>> > configuration for truck. It also makes no sense to try to add power to 
>> > trailers where eight of the tires are.
>>
>> Lithium batteries don't perform well in the cold, which trucks have to deal with. At -20 C the capacity is about 75%; at -40 C it is less than half. So those Tesla semis operating during the wintertime could see their range reduced to under 150/250 miles (depending upon the version). Of course, they could insulate the batteries and use a part of their energy to heat themselves (which would also reduce range).
>
>The capacity you are talking about seems to be the capacity of the battery to deliver current, which does decline at low temperatures, rather than the energy stored in the battery  which is what determines range, and doesn't decline in lithium batteries.
>
>As usual, you don't seem to know what you are talking about.
>
>Once a battery is delivering power, it is also warming itself up. Think internal resistance. As soon as you have got the truck moving, the power available to keep it moving  will immediately increase. Using some of the power stored in the battery to warm it up might be necessary, if the truck needed lots of power to get moving at all, but that doesn't seem to be an actual problem.
>
>Keeping the battery warm while you are recharging it does seem to be necessary, but it isn't going to use up much power or energy, and will have zero effect on range.
>
I have a Tesla model 3, and when I plan the charging for longer trips, the car will preheat the battery to optimize charging 


--
Klaus

On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:31:52 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 9:38:02 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: 
> > On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:55:09 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote: 
> > ... 
> > > Lithium batteries don't perform well in the cold, which trucks have to deal with. At -20 C the capacity is about 75%; at -40 C it is less than half. So those Tesla semis operating during the wintertime could see their range reduced to under 150/250 miles (depending upon the version). Of course, they could insulate the batteries and use a part of their energy to heat themselves (which would also reduce range). 
> > All modern EVs can heat or cool the batteries as needed. So after a short period of driving they will be at optimum temperature so they can be at full performance.
> Not trying to be pedantic, but not *all* BEVs heat/cool the batteries. I know this is an issue in the Nissan Leaf, but then you did say, "All modern EVs". They neither heat nor cool and the cooling can be a real issue at times, like when fast charging.

Cold is not a problem.  Leaf batteries have cell heaters from the beginning.

>  I met someone who has one and he talked about several times when he was worried about the temperature, but continued to charge. Some of his stories were pretty desperate, like Ed Lee, trying to reach the next level 2 charger. What a crappy way to drive!

It's just a reflection of how bad the charging infrastructure is.  While towing 11 miles to find a charger, the driver stopped at 3 to 4 gas station to look for charger, so he can save some gas.  If only every gas station has at least a level-2.

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 2:46:15 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> 17.04.22 06:57, Anthony William Sloman wrote: 
> >On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:55:09 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: 
> >> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 12:59:46 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote: 
> >> > Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> >> > >> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> >> > >> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: 
> >> > >> > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> >> > >> > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> >> > >> > > 
> >> > >> > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> >> > >> > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> >> > >> > > 
> >> > >> > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> >> > >> > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. 
> >> > >> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term 
> >> > > 
> >> > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. 
> >> > 18 motors for an "18 wheeler" makes no sense at all. Look at the axle 
> >> > configuration for truck. It also makes no sense to try to add power to 
> >> > trailers where eight of the tires are. 
> >> 
> >> Lithium batteries don't perform well in the cold, which trucks have to deal with. At -20 C the capacity is about 75%; at -40 C it is less than half. So those Tesla semis operating during the wintertime could see their range reduced to under 150/250 miles (depending upon the version). Of course, they could insulate the batteries and use a part of their energy to heat themselves (which would also reduce range). 
> > 
> >The capacity you are talking about seems to be the capacity of the battery to deliver current, which does decline at low temperatures, rather than the energy stored in the battery which is what determines range, and doesn't decline in lithium batteries. 
> > 
> >As usual, you don't seem to know what you are talking about. 
> > 
> >Once a battery is delivering power, it is also warming itself up. Think internal resistance. As soon as you have got the truck moving, the power available to keep it moving will immediately increase. Using some of the power stored in the battery to warm it up might be necessary, if the truck needed lots of power to get moving at all, but that doesn't seem to be an actual problem. 
> > 
> >Keeping the battery warm while you are recharging it does seem to be necessary, but it isn't going to use up much power or energy, and will have zero effect on range. 
> >
> I have a Tesla model 3, and when I plan the charging for longer trips, the car will preheat the battery to optimize charging 

That is using power that is not waste power... maybe?  In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated.  This might be done by simply reducing the cooling.  However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating.  Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature.  So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal. 

-- 

Rick C.

+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 10:11:59 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:31:52 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 9:38:02 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: 
> > > On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:55:09 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > ... 
> > > > Lithium batteries don't perform well in the cold, which trucks have to deal with. At -20 C the capacity is about 75%; at -40 C it is less than half. So those Tesla semis operating during the wintertime could see their range reduced to under 150/250 miles (depending upon the version). Of course, they could insulate the batteries and use a part of their energy to heat themselves (which would also reduce range). 
> > > All modern EVs can heat or cool the batteries as needed. So after a short period of driving they will be at optimum temperature so they can be at full performance. 
> > Not trying to be pedantic, but not *all* BEVs heat/cool the batteries. I know this is an issue in the Nissan Leaf, but then you did say, "All modern EVs". They neither heat nor cool and the cooling can be a real issue at times, like when fast charging.
> Cold is not a problem. Leaf batteries have cell heaters from the beginning.

I stand corrected.  It's only overheating that is a problem, which can happen every time you charge. 


> > I met someone who has one and he talked about several times when he was worried about the temperature, but continued to charge. Some of his stories were pretty desperate, like Ed Lee, trying to reach the next level 2 charger. What a crappy way to drive!
> It's just a reflection of how bad the charging infrastructure is. While towing 11 miles to find a charger, the driver stopped at 3 to 4 gas station to look for charger, so he can save some gas. If only every gas station has at least a level-2.

If only, they would almost never be used.  The world does not revolve around your bizarre use case of having almost no range and being unwilling or unable to effectively plan your trips to suit. 

-- 

Rick C.

+-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
...
> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal. 
...

The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater.

The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power.

It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do.

kw

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> ...
> > That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal.
> ... 
> 
> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater. 
> 
> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power. 
> 
> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do. 

I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast.  As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater.

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:15:32 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> ...
> > That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal.
> ... 
> 
> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater. 
> 
> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power. 
> 
> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do. 

Not really a significant detail.  The issue is whether the battery is heated by waste heat or intentional heat used in addition to the waste.  I'm pretty sure the heat is additional heat, or there would not be any concern with the current state of charge of the battery.  Waste heat is always available for any use you can find for it. 

-- 

Rick C.

++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On April 13, Ed Lee wrote:
>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
>
> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, 
> you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.

The ultimate constraint is the energy source, and speed at which it 
can convert into kinetic energy.  At the high end, it's a matter of air 
resistance; out of the starting gate, torque to overcome inertia. 

A motor isn't a power supply  -

--
Rich

On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> ...
>>> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal.
>> ...
>>
>> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater.
>>
>> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power.
>>
>> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do.
> 
> I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast.  As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater.
I have seen it active many times, and also when ambient temperatures are 
20 degrees.

See plot of lifetime vs temperature here:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jay-Lee-27/publication/260030309/figure/download/fig2/AS:296997371301891@1447821099785/Lithium-ion-battery-life-vs-temperature-and-charging-rate-36-39-44-45.png

ESR:

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0c9f4e352906f965c5327221f6d49854?rik=KR97DtfMdiFdaQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avdweb.nl%2fArticle_files%2fSolarbike%2fBatteries%2fLiFePO4-internal-resistance-versus-temperature.jpg&ehk=NHkwR3Qn%2bfG2QGCx8OagT20WqS3Cyb6azCKOMcvKkEs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1

The point is that during charging you add say 60kW of energy. If you can 
increase the efficiency during charging that then looses less heat than 
used for warming the battery, you both save energy and prolong the life 
of the battery

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote: 
> >> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> >> ... 
> >>> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal. 
> >> ... 
> >> 
> >> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater. 
> >> 
> >> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power. 
> >> 
> >> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do. 
> > 
> > I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast. As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater.
> I have seen it active many times, and also when ambient temperatures are 
> 20 degrees. 
> 
> See plot of lifetime vs temperature here: 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jay-Lee-27/publication/260030309/figure/download/fig2/AS:296997371301891@1447821099785/Lithium-ion-battery-life-vs-temperature-and-charging-rate-36-39-44-45.png 
> 
> ESR: 
> 
> https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0c9f4e352906f965c5327221f6d49854?rik=KR97DtfMdiFdaQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avdweb.nl%2fArticle_files%2fSolarbike%2fBatteries%2fLiFePO4-internal-resistance-versus-temperature.jpg&ehk=NHkwR3Qn%2bfG2QGCx8OagT20WqS3Cyb6azCKOMcvKkEs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1 
> 
> The point is that during charging you add say 60kW of energy. If you can 
> increase the efficiency during charging that then looses less heat than 
> used for warming the battery, you both save energy and prolong the life 
> of the battery

If that is the case, the error in logic is that you need to warm the battery prior to charging.  The battery would be warmed sufficiently while charging by the waste heat without using additional heat.  

In the Tesla, the battery is warmed at the expense of otherwise useful energy, because it shortens the charging time.  Time connected to the charger is considered a "precious" commodity since they are expensive units and there are only so many.  

Where did you get your data?  The graph doesn't even say what type of battery it is for. 

-- 

Rick C.

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