Tesla is fast

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 22:52:12 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> >
>> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> >
>> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>
> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term

Engines stall when a high load is applied, motors burn out.  We need a happy medium.

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:38:11 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> > >
>> > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> > >
>> > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>
> I am thinking in terms of trucking.  Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers.  Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.

So that's a truck truck not a car truck?  You Merkins need to sort your language.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:28:04 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>> > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>> > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>> > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>
> Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck.  In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries.  However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.

There isn't enough Lithium.  We're going back to horses.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
>> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
>> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
>> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off.
>
> EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day

No wonder it costs so much to transport things.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:45:50 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 2:14:28 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
>> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
>> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. In a 30 minute break, charging can restore some 70-80% of the initial range. Call it 75%, so 11 hours of driving can extend to 175% of the initial range. 11 hr x 65 mph = 715 miles requires a vehicle range of over 400 miles. That's not a stretch in any way. Tesla is planning 300 and 500 mile versions. I can't tell you the weight of those batteries, but Tesla is saying they will not have to give up significantly on the payload capacity, "less than 1 ton", according to Musk.
>
> We can only guess.  Current Tesla battery is around 1/2 ton for vehicle weight of 3 to 4 tons.  A fully loaded semi could weight 20 to 25 tons.  I think it would be several tons of batteries.

I'd love to see that short out.

You know when you could buy Li Ion cells with protection?  Whatever happened to that?

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 23:42:10 +0100, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

> On 15/4/22 2:28 am, Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>>>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>>>>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>>>>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>>>>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>>>> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>>> More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>>
>> Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck.  In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries.  However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
>
> Read the link I sent. Standard prime movers are being retrofitted (in
> under a week!) with electric drive motors and quick-swap batteries. The
> trucks aren't limited by the geometry or aesthetics of a passenger car,
> so standardised interchangable batteries are easily achievable.

There's no reason you can't do that with cars.  The underside of a car is pretty much the same for every model.

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: 
> 
> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: 
> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> >> > > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> >> > > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. 
> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term 
> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. 
> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... 
> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? 
> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. 
> > 
> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day 
> 
> No wonder it costs so much to transport things.

Yeah, we don't need safe drivers.  We need cheap, disposable drivers.  

-- 

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>
>> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
>> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
>> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks?
>> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV.
>> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off.
>> >
>> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day
>>
>> No wonder it costs so much to transport things.
>
> Yeah, we don't need safe drivers.  We need cheap, disposable drivers.

We need to let people make heir own choices.  The nanny society is beyond a joke.

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:39:02 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: 
> >> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:23:33 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: 
> >> 
> >> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 23.14.28 UTC+2 skrev Ricky: 
> >> >> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >> >> > On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> >> >> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:44:19 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> >> >> > > > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> >> >> > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: 
> >> >> > > > > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee: 
> >> >> > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote: 
> >> >> > > > > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road. 
> >> >> > > > > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal. 
> >> >> > > > > > > > 
> >> >> > > > > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one, 
> >> >> > > > > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation? 
> >> >> > > > > > > > 
> >> >> > > > > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations - 
> >> >> > > > > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE. 
> >> >> > > > > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term 
> >> >> > > > > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo. 
> >> >> > > > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ... 
> >> >> > > More FUD. Usually you post real information. What bee is up your bonnet about BEV trucks? 
> >> >> > Biggest problem is to maintain the current truck/driver model, where they are driving 8 to 10 hours of the same truck. In that case, we might need upward of 10,000 pounds of batteries. However, there are always shorter hauls where they can decouple the drivers with trucks/trailers, or go with hybrid diesel/EV. 
> >> >> Drivers can only be on duty for 8 hours before being required to take a 30-minute break. They can only drive for 11 hours total before having to take a much longer time off. 
> >> > 
> >> > EU rules are more restrictive, a minimum of 45 minutes rest every 4.5 hours and a maximum of 9 hours driving per day 
> >> 
> >> No wonder it costs so much to transport things. 
> > 
> > Yeah, we don't need safe drivers. We need cheap, disposable drivers.
> We need to let people make heir own choices. The nanny society is beyond a joke.

LOL!  So no rules?  No regulations?  Perhaps you are not aware that we typically start with no rules.  Then we have problems and create rules to deal with them.  So now we have driver's licenses that you must qualify for, rules of driving, rules of commercial driving where you are piloting 40 tons of vehicle at 65 mph.  Someone, somewhere thinks it is a good idea for the drivers to be adequately rested.  Then there's you. 

-- 

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 18/04/2022 23.49, Ricky wrote:
> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:38:16 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 18.47, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:15:32 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:52:26 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> That is using power that is not waste power... maybe? In discussions this has always been treated as consuming battery power, but the Tesla batteries are cooled as well as heated. This might be done by simply reducing the cooling. However, the fact that this is not enabled when your arrival charge level is below 20% implies it uses active heating. Yes, I'm sure this is the case, because there is no difference between the optimal temperature while driving and the optimal charging temperature. So when navigating to a charger, the battery will supply power to heat the battery if it is colder than optimal.
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The Tesla Model 3/Y is unusual in that it doesn't actually have a battery heater.
>>>>
>>>> The batteries can take heat from the motor cooling loop and if more heat is needed the motor controller operates the motor in an inefficient way to dissipate more power.
>>>>
>>>> It takes as much power to do it that way but reduces cost by avoiding the need for adding a resistive heater to the battery as most (all?) other EVs do.
>>>
>>> I believe the heater is only on when temp drop to -20C or so, which probably never happen in the west coast. As far as cost is concerned, it's about the same as the fifth seat heater.
>> I have seen it active many times, and also when ambient temperatures are
>> 20 degrees.
>>
>> See plot of lifetime vs temperature here:
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jay-Lee-27/publication/260030309/figure/download/fig2/AS:296997371301891@1447821099785/Lithium-ion-battery-life-vs-temperature-and-charging-rate-36-39-44-45.png
>>
>> ESR:
>>
>> https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.0c9f4e352906f965c5327221f6d49854?rik=KR97DtfMdiFdaQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.avdweb.nl%2fArticle_files%2fSolarbike%2fBatteries%2fLiFePO4-internal-resistance-versus-temperature.jpg&ehk=NHkwR3Qn%2bfG2QGCx8OagT20WqS3Cyb6azCKOMcvKkEs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1
>>
>> The point is that during charging you add say 60kW of energy. If you can
>> increase the efficiency during charging that then looses less heat than
>> used for warming the battery, you both save energy and prolong the life
>> of the battery
> 
> If that is the case, the error in logic is that you need to warm the battery prior to charging.  The battery would be warmed sufficiently while charging by the waste heat without using additional heat.
> 

If you charge the battery without preheat, the temperature due to higher 
ESR in the beginning is not uniform (has not spread out), so you wont 
get the benefit. When the car prepares the charging, it does so at least 
20 minutes before start of charge
> In the Tesla, the battery is warmed at the expense of otherwise useful energy, because it shortens the charging time.  Time connected to the charger is considered a "precious" commodity since they are expensive units and there are only so many.
> 
> Where did you get your data?  The graph doesn't even say what type of battery it is for.
> 

I just randomly looked up Lithium Ion data. They are the same 
technology, so should be comparable to the Tesla battery