On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:00:21 -0700) it happened Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <isufg6F3afmU1@mid.individual.net>:>On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: >> [snip] >>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous >>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that >>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but >>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and >>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a >>> variac from then on. >>> >>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass >>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. >>> -- >>> Regards, Joerg >>> >>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: >> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed >> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) >> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... >> cheers, RS >> > >Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be >choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't >want to have yet another project. > >BTW, when I tried "mock VFD" with a generator and a big audio amp it >worked beautifully and the fans also ran with much less buzz.Yep, that is how I sometimes drive my 60 Hz cryo cooler. But with a transformer at the outout of the audio amp. Not sure how the transformer would like say 30 Hz... But this thing needs to be driven in resoance, so fine tuning is possible now. http://www.panteltje.com/pub/cryocooler_vibration_damper_side_view_img_2583.jpg>-- >Regards, Joerg > >http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >
Small single-phase VFD for 120V?
Started by ●October 12, 2021
Reply by ●October 16, 20212021-10-16
Reply by ●October 16, 20212021-10-16
On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:> lørdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: >> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: >>> [snip] >>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous >>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that >>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but >>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and >>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a >>>> variac from then on. >>>> >>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass >>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. >>>> -- >>>> Regards, Joerg >>>> >>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>> >>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: >>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed >>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) >>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... >>> cheers, RS >>> >> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be >> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't >> want to have yet another project. > > https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC > https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf > > ;) >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting list :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●October 16, 20212021-10-16
On 10/15/21 10:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:00:21 -0700) it happened Joerg > <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <isufg6F3afmU1@mid.individual.net>: > >> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: >>> [snip] >>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous >>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that >>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but >>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and >>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a >>>> variac from then on. >>>> >>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass >>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. >>>> -- >>>> Regards, Joerg >>>> >>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>> >>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: >>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed >>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) >>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... >>> cheers, RS >>> >> >> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be >> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't >> want to have yet another project. >> >> BTW, when I tried "mock VFD" with a generator and a big audio amp it >> worked beautifully and the fans also ran with much less buzz. > > Yep, that is how I sometimes drive my 60 Hz cryo cooler. > But with a transformer at the outout of the audio amp. > Not sure how the transformer would like say 30 Hz...It's ok because the voltage is accordingly lower.> But this thing needs to be driven in resoance, so fine tuning is possible now. > http://www.panteltje.com/pub/cryocooler_vibration_damper_side_view_img_2583.jpg >Are you freezing a pet rat so it can be brought back to life in 1000 years when medical technology has progressed some? :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●October 16, 20212021-10-16
On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:44:17 -0700) it happened Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <it0ks1FfuecU3@mid.individual.net>:>On 10/15/21 10:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:00:21 -0700) it happened Joerg >> <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <isufg6F3afmU1@mid.individual.net>: >> >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a >>>>> variac from then on. >>>>> >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, Joerg >>>>> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>> >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... >>>> cheers, RS >>>> >>> >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't >>> want to have yet another project. >>> >>> BTW, when I tried "mock VFD" with a generator and a big audio amp it >>> worked beautifully and the fans also ran with much less buzz. >> >> Yep, that is how I sometimes drive my 60 Hz cryo cooler. >> But with a transformer at the outout of the audio amp. >> Not sure how the transformer would like say 30 Hz... > > >It's ok because the voltage is accordingly lower.If you say so.>> But this thing needs to be driven in resoance, so fine tuning is possible now. >> http://www.panteltje.com/pub/cryocooler_vibration_damper_side_view_img_2583.jpg >> > >Are you freezing a pet rat so it can be brought back to life in 1000 >years when medical technology has progressed some? :-)Na, just making liquid air and oxygen for my spacecar to mars, cooling camera sensors to be able to see the aliens, trying to stop glowballworming, basically playing and discovering. Oh I forgot the superconductor, testing home made thermocouples, http://panteltje.com/pub/cryo/ This guy inspired me to buy the thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWESWqhD8s watch some of his videos, better than all that beer.
Reply by ●October 16, 20212021-10-16
On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:41:12 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:>On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> l�rdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a >>>>> variac from then on. >>>>> >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, Joerg >>>>> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>> >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... >>>> cheers, RS >>>> >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't >>> want to have yet another project. >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC >> https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf >> >> ;) >> > >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting >list :-)How about a servo drive board. May need a small amp between drive and fan motor. .<https://www.amazon.com/Onyehn-Channel-PCA9685-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07GJCPWW2/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_6/141-4119035-0182461> Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●October 16, 20212021-10-16
søndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 00.06.40 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn:> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:41:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > >> lørdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: > >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: > >>>> [snip] > >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous > >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that > >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but > >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and > >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a > >>>>> variac from then on. > >>>>> > >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass > >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Regards, Joerg > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > >>>> > >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: > >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed > >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) > >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... > >>>> cheers, RS > >>>> > >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be > >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't > >>> want to have yet another project. > >> > >> https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC > >> https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf > >> > >> ;) > >> > > > >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting > >list :-) > How about a servo drive board. May need a small amp between drive and > fan motor. > > .<https://www.amazon.com/Onyehn-Channel-PCA9685-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07GJCPWW2/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_6/141-4119035-0182461> >it's for controlling RC servos using their pulse width protocol, it's not a for an actual servo drive
Reply by ●October 17, 20212021-10-17
On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Oct 2021 13:06:21 -0700) it happened Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <it0pltFgr26U3@mid.individual.net>:>On 10/16/21 12:52 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:44:17 -0700) it happened Joerg >> <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <it0ks1FfuecU3@mid.individual.net>: >> >>> On 10/15/21 10:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > >[...] > >>>> But this thing needs to be driven in resoance, so fine tuning is possible now. >>>> http://www.panteltje.com/pub/cryocooler_vibration_damper_side_view_img_2583.jpg >>>> >>> >>> Are you freezing a pet rat so it can be brought back to life in 1000 >>> years when medical technology has progressed some? :-) >> >> Na, just making liquid air and oxygen for my spacecar to mars, cooling camera sensors to be able to see the aliens, >> trying to stop glowballworming, basically playing and discovering. >> Oh I forgot the superconductor, testing home made thermocouples, >> http://panteltje.com/pub/cryo/ >> This guy inspired me to buy the thing: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWESWqhD8s >> watch some of his vides, better than all that beer. >> > >Just make sure there isn't a mushroom cloud over your house some day :-)Not very serious: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211015111210.htm much of that nuculear fear hype is the same as for covid. Germany dismantled their nuke plants and now energy prices in the EU are skyrocketing Makes one think if we should not lock up all those greenies who put windmills and solar panels everywhere to fight the effect of Milankovich Cycles; http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm An other snake oil case. Them greenies need re-educating camps... They endanger humanity more than nuculear war. In fact quite possible, just like after WW2 after the Spanish flue, unrest will trigger movements for *freedom* that will result in WW3. Radiation levels are higher now I moved here: http://panteltje.com/pub/background_radiation_from_one_place_to_the_other.gif probably radon. I remember this clip where this Russian guy sits under the head on the wall of a radioactive dear he has shot and the reporter asks him 'Are you not afraid of that radiation?' 'It is good for your cancer he replies.' Anyways I lost much of my fear for that stuff, have designed and build several gamma spectrometers now. http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/ http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG .... http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/PMT_with_radium_in_bag_img_2482.jpg
Reply by ●October 17, 20212021-10-17
On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 5:15:27 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Oct 2021 13:06:21 -0700) it happened Joerg > <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <it0plt...@mid.individual.net>: > >On 10/16/21 12:52 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:44:17 -0700) it happened Joerg > >> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <it0ks1...@mid.individual.net>: > >> > >>> On 10/15/21 10:34 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > > > > >[...] > > > >>>> But this thing needs to be driven in resoance, so fine tuning is possible now. > >>>> http://www.panteltje.com/pub/cryocooler_vibration_damper_side_view_img_2583.jpg > >>>> > >>> > >>> Are you freezing a pet rat so it can be brought back to life in 1000 > >>> years when medical technology has progressed some? :-) > >> > >> Na, just making liquid air and oxygen for my spacecar to mars, cooling camera sensors to be able to see the aliens, > >> trying to stop glowballworming, basically playing and discovering. > >> Oh I forgot the superconductor, testing home made thermocouples, > >> http://panteltje.com/pub/cryo/ > >> This guy inspired me to buy the thing: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWESWqhD8s > >> watch some of his vides, better than all that beer. > >> > > > >Just make sure there isn't a mushroom cloud over your house some day :-) > Not very serious: > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211015111210.htm > much of that nuculear fear hype is the same as for covid. > Germany dismantled their nuke plants and now energy prices in the EU are skyrocketing > Makes one think if we should not lock up all those greenies who put windmills and solar panels > everywhere to fight the effect of Milankovich Cycles; > http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htmOf course the tiny Milankovich effect needs the 180ppm to 270 ppm difference in atmospheric CO2 levels between ice ages and interglacials to amplify itself up to a level which will flip the earth between one and the other, plus a lot of highly reflective ice sheets across the northern parts of the northern hemisphere, but Jan doesn't have to know how it works to come to the conclusion he wants.> An other snake oil case.The snake oil is what Jan is disopensing.> Them greenies need re-educating camps... They endanger humanity more than nuculear war.Jan needs an education camp. He'd be endangering humanity if anybody took him seriously, but it is the fossil carbon extraction industry that is the real danger, and the money they spend on suckering gullible twits like Jan and John Larkin so that they can keep on making money out of wrecking the climate for a little bit longer.> In fact quite possible, just like after WW2 after the Spanish flue, unrest will trigger movements for *freedom* that will result in WW3.The Spanish flu was 1918-19. WW2 was twenty years later. The Spanish flu isn't usually seen as any kind of "trigger".> Radiation levels are higher now I moved here: > http://panteltje.com/pub/background_radiation_from_one_place_to_the_other.gif > probably radon. > > I remember this clip where this Russian guy sits under the head on the wall of a radioactive deer he has shot > and the reporter asks him 'Are you not afraid of that radiation?' > 'It is good for your cancer he replies.'Actually it is just a bad for you as it is for the cancer, but radiation treatment for cancer concentrates the radiation on the cancer. The head on the wall isn't going to be a directional source.> Anyways I lost much of my fear for that stuff, have designed and build several gamma spectrometers now. > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/ > http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG> .... > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/PMT_with_radium_in_bag_img_2482.jpgKnowing the spectrum of the radiation doesn't make it any less damaging. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●October 17, 20212021-10-17
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:> Cydrome Leader writes Bullshit : > ========================= >> >> > >> >> > Good point, could be a design flaw in the UPS. I can check that. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately, any UPS that's not really true sine wave is a design flaw. >> >> >> > ** Yawnnnnnnnnn....... wot drivel,. >> >> UPSes that do not make a clen sine wave are cheap garbage, period. > > ** Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn....... > >> >> Manufacturers will even pass square waves off as "modified sine wave". >> > >> > ** Works just fine with SMPSs. > >> Super. All loads are SMPSs. Nothing else exists. > > ** Insane drivel. > > UPSs and DC inverters are sold for PARTICULAR types of use. > Modified sine waves types are very good for many uses, from lamps to TV sets. > Horses for courses."Very good" as in somehow magically better than a 50 or 60Hz sine wave?>> >> While a VFD should rectify this ugly input and make a new AC wave for the >> >> motor, > >> > ** Nut case idea. > >> I guess you're too old to have ever seen a VFD. > > ** I had a DIY design for one published a national electronics magazine. > Specially engineered for multipole, synchronous motors as used in hi-fi turntables. > Perfect sine wave output. > > Tested the prototype using a 120mm square AC fan.That's so cute! I bet Mitsubishi and ABB came banging at your door for licensing rights to this new amazing 12 watt VFD.
Reply by ●October 17, 20212021-10-17
Cydrome Leader writes Bullshit : =========================> > >> > > >> >> > Good point, could be a design flaw in the UPS. I can check that. > >> >> > >> >> Unfortunately, any UPS that's not really true sine wave is a design flaw. > >> >> > >> > ** Yawnnnnnnnnn....... wot drivel,. > >> > >> UPSes that do not make a clen sine wave are cheap garbage, period. > > > > ** Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn....... > > > >> >> Manufacturers will even pass square waves off as "modified sine wave". > >> > > >> > ** Works just fine with SMPSs. > > > >> Super. All loads are SMPSs. Nothing else exists. > > > > ** Insane drivel. > > > > UPSs and DC inverters are sold for PARTICULAR types of use. > > Modified sine waves types are very good for many uses, from lamps to TV sets. > > Horses for courses.> "Very good" as in somehow magically better than a 50 or 60Hz sine wave?** Very good = no negative issues. There is nothing "magic" about sine wave - you masturbating jerk.> >> >> While a VFD should rectify this ugly input and make a new AC wave for the > >> >> motor, > > > >> > ** Nut case idea. > > > >> I guess you're too old to have ever seen a VFD. > > > > ** I had a DIY design for one published a national electronics magazine. > > Specially engineered for multipole, synchronous motors as used in hi-fi turntables. > > Perfect sine wave output. > > > > Tested the prototype using a 120mm square AC fan. > > That's so cute!** Like a box of tiny kittens...... Not a bucket of smelly shit like your ideas. ...... Phil
