Reply by Anthony William Sloman October 21, 20212021-10-21
On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 1:09:29 PM UTC+11, terrell....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+11, terrell....@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > What's wrong with the traditional, series inductor to reduce speed? > > It doesn't change the frequency. Synchronous motors spin slower if they are driven from a lower frequency source. Induction motors lag the rotating field but they won't rotate if field rotates much faster than the rotor can spin. > > Good grief! Start with a fan that produces the maximum required flow, so that you don't need to change the frequency It's 100+ year old technology. Even you should be able to understand that much.
Some people object to a fan that is noisier than it needs to be. By being able to adjust the speed of rotation to match the heat being generated you can minimise the irritation. There's lot of 100+ year old technology that can be brought into play, but you and Phil Allison don't seem to understand it as well as you should. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by Michael Terrell October 20, 20212021-10-20
On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+11, terrell....@gmail.com wrote: > > > What's wrong with the traditional, series inductor to reduce speed? > It doesn't change the frequency. Synchronous motors spin slower if they are driven from a lower frequency source. Induction motors lag the rotating field but they won't rotate if field rotates much faster than the rotor can spin.
Good grief! Start with a fan that produces the maximum required flow, so that you don't need to change the frequency It's 100+ year old technology. Even you should be able to understand that much.
Reply by Cydrome Leader October 18, 20212021-10-18
whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 9:19:04 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote: >> Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >> >> I guess you're too old to have ever seen a VFD. >> >> > >> >> > ** I had a DIY design for one published a national electronics magazine. >> >> > Specially engineered for multipole, synchronous motors as used in hi-fi turntables. >> >> > Perfect sine wave output. > >> So how much did ABB and Mitsubishi pay to license your revolutionary VFD? >> Why not send some stepped square waves your your precious turtable motors? > > Several reasons; the turntable wow and flutter are treated by using slippy motors, and > heavy tables, for mechanical filtering of any AC deviations. You have > to do that part of the design with known motor torque info. > It's deadly too, to have harmonics making the motor hum or buzz; critical listening is > going to happen while the vinyl is spinning.
Don't tell me, tell phil.
>> Anybody else like this double standard? Tuntable motors need since waves, >> but fan motors don't also benefit from it? > > Ah, but fan motors are productive if they're off-frequency, while > turntables aren't. In a fan motor, you want energy efficiency after > startup, and noisemaking is acceptable. In a phonograph, not so.
buzzing fan motors are not acceptable, and it's not hard to make some of them sing, usually the cheaper ones running at the limits of not catching on fire due to all the removed copper and iron.
Reply by whit3rd October 18, 20212021-10-18
On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 9:19:04 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> I guess you're too old to have ever seen a VFD. > >> > > >> > ** I had a DIY design for one published a national electronics magazine. > >> > Specially engineered for multipole, synchronous motors as used in hi-fi turntables. > >> > Perfect sine wave output.
> So how much did ABB and Mitsubishi pay to license your revolutionary VFD? > Why not send some stepped square waves your your precious turtable motors?
Several reasons; the turntable wow and flutter are treated by using slippy motors, and heavy tables, for mechanical filtering of any AC deviations. You have to do that part of the design with known motor torque info. It's deadly too, to have harmonics making the motor hum or buzz; critical listening is going to happen while the vinyl is spinning.
> Anybody else like this double standard? Tuntable motors need since waves, > but fan motors don't also benefit from it?
Ah, but fan motors are productive if they're off-frequency, while turntables aren't. In a fan motor, you want energy efficiency after startup, and noisemaking is acceptable. In a phonograph, not so.
Reply by Cydrome Leader October 18, 20212021-10-18
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cydrome Leader writes Bullshit : > ========================= >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Good point, could be a design flaw in the UPS. I can check that. >> >> >> >> >> >> Unfortunately, any UPS that's not really true sine wave is a design flaw. >> >> >> >> >> > ** Yawnnnnnnnnn....... wot drivel,. >> >> >> >> UPSes that do not make a clen sine wave are cheap garbage, period. >> > >> > ** Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn....... >> > >> >> >> Manufacturers will even pass square waves off as "modified sine wave". >> >> > >> >> > ** Works just fine with SMPSs. >> > >> >> Super. All loads are SMPSs. Nothing else exists. >> > >> > ** Insane drivel. >> > >> > UPSs and DC inverters are sold for PARTICULAR types of use. >> > Modified sine waves types are very good for many uses, from lamps to TV sets. >> > Horses for courses. > >> "Very good" as in somehow magically better than a 50 or 60Hz sine wave? > > ** Very good = no negative issues. > > There is nothing "magic" about sine wave - you masturbating jerk.
What's the magic behind horrible waveforms with excessive ringing and harmonics vs. a sine wave?
>> >> >> While a VFD should rectify this ugly input and make a new AC wave for the >> >> >> motor, >> > >> >> > ** Nut case idea. >> > >> >> I guess you're too old to have ever seen a VFD. >> > >> > ** I had a DIY design for one published a national electronics magazine. >> > Specially engineered for multipole, synchronous motors as used in hi-fi turntables. >> > Perfect sine wave output. >> > >> > Tested the prototype using a 120mm square AC fan. >> >> That's so cute! > > ** Like a box of tiny kittens...... > > Not a bucket of smelly shit like your ideas.
So how much did ABB and Mitsubishi pay to license your revolutionary VFD? Why not send some stepped square waves your your precious turtable motors? I love how this jagoff says modified square waves are just fine for TVs and power supplies or whatever, but when the tune is audio equipment, his fruity little VFD makes perfect sine waves. Anybody else like this double standard? Tuntable motors need since waves, but fan motors don't also benefit from it?
Reply by Anthony William Sloman October 18, 20212021-10-18
On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+11, terrell....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > s&oslash;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 23.26.51 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn: > > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > > > <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: > > > > > > >s&oslash;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 00.06.40 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn: > > > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:41:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> >On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > > >> >> l&oslash;rdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: > > > >> >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: > > > >> >>>> [snip] > > > >> >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous > > > >> >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that > > > >> >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but > > > >> >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and > > > >> >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a > > > >> >>>>> variac from then on. > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass > > > >> >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. > > > >> >>>>> -- > > > >> >>>>> Regards, Joerg > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: > > > >> >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed > > > >> >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) > > > >> >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... > > > >> >>>> cheers, RS > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be > > > >> >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't > > > >> >>> want to have yet another project. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC > > > >> >> https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ;) > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting > > > >> >list :-) > > > >> How about a servo drive board. May need a small amp between drive and > > > >> fan motor. > > > >> > > > >> .<https://www.amazon.com/Onyehn-Channel-PCA9685-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07GJCPWW2/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_6/141-4119035-0182461> > > > >> > > > > > > > >it's for controlling RC servos using their pulse width protocol, it's not a for an actual servo drive > > > > > > Yes, but there is more to it than that. And that muffin fan does not > > > require all that much power. The example is of a small version, but > > > there is a spectrum. > > but that board is for RC servos, which is nothing like a fan > > > Arduino PWN channels can be used to synthesize two-phase > > > variable-speed stepper drive, or three-phase servo drive. The Arduino > > > or whatever makes the PWM, and the servo drive amplifies it. > > but then you don't need that board because it is just a bunch of pwms to control a large number of RC servos > > What's wrong with the traditional, series inductor to reduce speed?
It doesn't change the frequency. Synchronous motors spin slower if they are driven from a lower frequency source. Induction motors lag the rotating field but they won't rotate if field rotates much faster than the rotor can spin. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by Michael Terrell October 18, 20212021-10-18
On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> s&oslash;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 23.26.51 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn: > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > > <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: > > > > >s&oslash;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 00.06.40 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn: > > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:41:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> >On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > >> >> l&oslash;rdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: > > >> >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: > > >> >>>> [snip] > > >> >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous > > >> >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that > > >> >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but > > >> >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and > > >> >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a > > >> >>>>> variac from then on. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass > > >> >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. > > >> >>>>> -- > > >> >>>>> Regards, Joerg > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: > > >> >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed > > >> >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) > > >> >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... > > >> >>>> cheers, RS > > >> >>>> > > >> >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be > > >> >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't > > >> >>> want to have yet another project. > > >> >> > > >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC > > >> >> https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf > > >> >> > > >> >> ;) > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting > > >> >list :-) > > >> How about a servo drive board. May need a small amp between drive and > > >> fan motor. > > >> > > >> .<https://www.amazon.com/Onyehn-Channel-PCA9685-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07GJCPWW2/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_6/141-4119035-0182461> > > >> > > > > > >it's for controlling RC servos using their pulse width protocol, it's not a for an actual servo drive > > > > Yes, but there is more to it than that. And that muffin fan does not > > require all that much power. The example is of a small version, but > > there is a spectrum. > but that board is for RC servos, which is nothing like a fan > > Arduino PWN channels can be used to synthesize two-phase > > variable-speed stepper drive, or three-phase servo drive. The Arduino > > or whatever makes the PWM, and the servo drive amplifies it. > but then you don't need that board because it is just a bunch of pwms to control a large number of RC servos
What's wrong with the traditional, series inductor to reduce speed?
Reply by Lasse Langwadt Christensen October 17, 20212021-10-17
s&oslash;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 23.26.51 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn:
> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen > <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote: > > >s&oslash;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 00.06.40 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn: > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:41:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> > >> wrote: > >> >On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > >> >> l&oslash;rdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: > >> >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: > >> >>>> [snip] > >> >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous > >> >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that > >> >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but > >> >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and > >> >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a > >> >>>>> variac from then on. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass > >> >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. > >> >>>>> -- > >> >>>>> Regards, Joerg > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: > >> >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed > >> >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) > >> >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... > >> >>>> cheers, RS > >> >>>> > >> >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be > >> >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't > >> >>> want to have yet another project. > >> >> > >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC > >> >> https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf > >> >> > >> >> ;) > >> >> > >> > > >> >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting > >> >list :-) > >> How about a servo drive board. May need a small amp between drive and > >> fan motor. > >> > >> .<https://www.amazon.com/Onyehn-Channel-PCA9685-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07GJCPWW2/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_6/141-4119035-0182461> > >> > > > >it's for controlling RC servos using their pulse width protocol, it's not a for an actual servo drive > > Yes, but there is more to it than that. And that muffin fan does not > require all that much power. The example is of a small version, but > there is a spectrum.
but that board is for RC servos, which is nothing like a fan
> Arduino PWN channels can be used to synthesize two-phase > variable-speed stepper drive, or three-phase servo drive. The Arduino > or whatever makes the PWM, and the servo drive amplifies it.
but then you don't need that board because it is just a bunch of pwms to control a large number of RC servos
Reply by Joe Gwinn October 17, 20212021-10-17
On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>s&#4294967295;ndag den 17. oktober 2021 kl. 00.06.40 UTC+2 skrev Joe Gwinn: >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:41:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >On 10/15/21 4:55 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >> >> l&#4294967295;rdag den 16. oktober 2021 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Joerg: >> >>> On 10/15/21 10:57 AM, Rich S wrote: >> >>>> [snip] >> >>>>> I have an inductive-rated dimmer up front which came with the previous >> >>>>> set of fans and worked. However, those fans had a plastic frame and that >> >>>>> inevitably failed in the hot environment. The mfg thought it was ok but >> >>>>> it wasn't. So I replaced them with high-end Papst all-metal AC fans and >> >>>>> those stall out between the 40% and 80% settings. Which is why I used a >> >>>>> variac from then on. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Phil suggested it could be residual DC but I measured it with a lowpass >> >>>>> and the UPS doesn't have a DC offset. >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> Regards, Joerg >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi Joerg, whatever variable-drive- speed control method you go with, consider one that provides: >> >>>> (a) initial full power, for ~5 seconds, to ensure fan gets up to speed >> >>>> (b) closed-loop control, like a tachometer (optocoupler, etc.) >> >>>> since for some motors (those not designed to be varied) the drive isn't predicable or linear formula... >> >>>> cheers, RS >> >>>> >> >>> Well, the pickens are already super-slim to non-existent so I can't be >> >>> choosy. Looks like I'll have to build my own. Not a problem but I don't >> >>> want to have yet another project. >> >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver/dp/B01E8X64CC >> >> https://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf >> >> >> >> ;) >> >> >> > >> >Well, yeah, I can add yet another homebrew project to the large waiting >> >list :-) >> How about a servo drive board. May need a small amp between drive and >> fan motor. >> >> .<https://www.amazon.com/Onyehn-Channel-PCA9685-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07GJCPWW2/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_6/141-4119035-0182461> >> > >it's for controlling RC servos using their pulse width protocol, it's not a for an actual servo drive
Yes, but there is more to it than that. And that muffin fan does not require all that much power. The example is of a small version, but there is a spectrum. Arduino PWN channels can be used to synthesize two-phase variable-speed stepper drive, or three-phase servo drive. The Arduino or whatever makes the PWM, and the servo drive amplifies it. Joe Gwinn
Reply by Phil Allison October 17, 20212021-10-17
Cydrome Leader writes Bullshit : 
 ========================= 
> > >> > > >> >> > Good point, could be a design flaw in the UPS. I can check that. > >> >> > >> >> Unfortunately, any UPS that's not really true sine wave is a design flaw. > >> >> > >> > ** Yawnnnnnnnnn....... wot drivel,. > >> > >> UPSes that do not make a clen sine wave are cheap garbage, period. > > > > ** Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn....... > > > >> >> Manufacturers will even pass square waves off as "modified sine wave". > >> > > >> > ** Works just fine with SMPSs. > > > >> Super. All loads are SMPSs. Nothing else exists. > > > > ** Insane drivel. > > > > UPSs and DC inverters are sold for PARTICULAR types of use. > > Modified sine waves types are very good for many uses, from lamps to TV sets. > > Horses for courses.
> "Very good" as in somehow magically better than a 50 or 60Hz sine wave?
** Very good = no negative issues. There is nothing "magic" about sine wave - you masturbating jerk.
> >> >> While a VFD should rectify this ugly input and make a new AC wave for the > >> >> motor, > > > >> > ** Nut case idea. > > > >> I guess you're too old to have ever seen a VFD. > > > > ** I had a DIY design for one published a national electronics magazine. > > Specially engineered for multipole, synchronous motors as used in hi-fi turntables. > > Perfect sine wave output. > > > > Tested the prototype using a 120mm square AC fan. > > That's so cute!
** Like a box of tiny kittens...... Not a bucket of smelly shit like your ideas. ...... Phil