On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 7:35:07 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:09:16 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV > >> > >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three > > > > > >This is so typical of the lack of intelligence in corporate and government management. Effective chemical fire extinguisher technology has been and continues to be developed to quench large lithium battery fires quickly and efficiency. > But all the reactants are close together, in a reacting heap. It > doesn't need air. The only way to stop the fire is to cool everything > off, or disperse it all.Problem is packing more energy together and using more plastic than steel. We don't hear too much about Leaf battery fire, because there are lots of steel between cells. It's low range, but i can add external long range storage when needed.
battery problems
Started by ●August 4, 2021
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net> wrote:> On 8/4/2021 4:09 PM, John Larkin wrote: >> >>... >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three >> >> > > The article mentions battery capacity in MW. Is that just journalistic > ignorance or are these batteries really measured in MW, not MWh? I'd > think that _energy_, not _power_, would be the metric.The industry typically uses MW to specify generating station capacity. For instance, Burns & McDonnell specify the output of the Rocky Mountain Cabin Creek pumped storage hydroelectric plant as 300-MW: https://www.burnsmcd.com/projects/cabin-creek-hydro-electrical-controls-upgrade Danke, -- Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light; She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
torsdag den 5. august 2021 kl. 16.43.10 UTC+2 skrev bill....@ieee.org:> On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 11:54:40 PM UTC+10, bobenge...@gmail.com wrote: > > On 8/4/2021 4:09 PM, John Larkin wrote: > > > > > >... > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three > > > > The article mentions battery capacity in MW. Is that just journalistic > > ignorance or are these batteries really measured in MW, not MWh? I'd > > think that _energy_, not _power_, would be the metric. > The industry can be more interested in how much power they can get in or out, than in the actual energy stored, though that is obviously important too. > > The Tesla battery bank in South Australia has made a lot more money out of providing short term frequency correction to compensate for rapidly changing loads than it has out buying up power when the grid is selling it cheaply and selling it back when the grid will pay more for it. Apparently it is split half-and-half between the two jobs > > The battery bank may have been sold to South Australia as am energy store, but a frequency correction machine it works a whole lot better than the traditional solutions, and the power it can deliver in the short term is the crucial metric in that job. > > Victoria has a lot more industry than South Australia so it may need a lot more power to handle the frequency correction job. >https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:35:07 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:09:16 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV > >> > >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three > > > > > >This is so typical of the lack of intelligence in corporate and government management. Effective chemical fire extinguisher technology has been and continues to be developed to quench large lithium battery fires quickly and efficiency. > But all the reactants are close together, in a reacting heap. It > doesn't need air. The only way to stop the fire is to cool everything > off, or disperse it all.The state of the art is this: https://cfpa-e.eu/an-extinguishing-agent-specifically-developed-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires/ There's no reason it can't be scaled up for the 3MW jobs. Bunch of demo videos showing how fast it works. https://www.avdfire.com/videos/> > An explosion might work. > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > The best designs are necessarily accidental.
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:35:07 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:09:16 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > > >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV > > >> > > >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three > > > > > > > > >This is so typical of the lack of intelligence in corporate and government management. Effective chemical fire extinguisher technology has been and continues to be developed to quench large lithium battery fires quickly and efficiency. > > But all the reactants are close together, in a reacting heap. It > > doesn't need air. The only way to stop the fire is to cool everything > > off, or disperse it all. > The state of the art is this: > https://cfpa-e.eu/an-extinguishing-agent-specifically-developed-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires/Good for garages.> There's no reason it can't be scaled up for the 3MW jobs.No need to save burning batteries. Just let them burn out. Perhaps using smaller containers and space them out apart. There are plenty of spaces around the power plant.
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:29:29 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:>On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:35:07 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:09:16 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV >> >> >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three >> > >> > >> >This is so typical of the lack of intelligence in corporate and government management. Effective chemical fire extinguisher technology has been and continues to be developed to quench large lithium battery fires quickly and efficiency. >> But all the reactants are close together, in a reacting heap. It >> doesn't need air. The only way to stop the fire is to cool everything >> off, or disperse it all. > >The state of the art is this: >https://cfpa-e.eu/an-extinguishing-agent-specifically-developed-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires/ > >There's no reason it can't be scaled up for the 3MW jobs.I guess local fire departments would have to haul around tanker trainers of this stuff. Battery packs could be designed with space between the cells to let this stuff in. Makes them bigger. Lithium battery fires in garages are at the very least bad press for electric cars. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc The best designs are necessarily accidental.
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs > <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:09:16 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV >>> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three >> >> >> This is so typical of the lack of intelligence in corporate and government management. Effective chemical fire extinguisher technology has been and continues to be developed to quench large lithium battery fires quickly and efficiency. > > But all the reactants are close together, in a reacting heap. It > doesn't need air. The only way to stop the fire is to cool everything > off, or disperse it all. > > An explosion might work. > > >https://www.theexplodingwhale.com/evidence/resources/dave-barry-article/ Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On 2021-08-05, Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:> On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 11:07:54 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote: >> On 05/08/2021 07:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote: >> > On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 4:38:51 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> >> On a sunny day (Wed, 04 Aug 2021 13:09:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin >> >> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in >> >> <pqslggdiehomu3o55...@4ax.com>: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers >> >>> -are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV >> >>> >> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three >> >> >> >> Batteries are always dangerous. >> > >> > Any stored energy is always dangerous. Big batteries are lot less dangerous than large chunks of chemical energy. Bulk storage of ammonium nitrate has produced a couple of mega-ton explosions. >> >> Unusual for you to get your facts so wrong, Bill. A few kilotons, maybe, >> but megatons? Not a chance. > > Oops. My bad. I was thinking of Halifax in 1917 which was about three kilotons. A fire onboard the cargo ship SS Grandcamp docked at Texas City in 1947 detonated 2,300 tons of ammonium nitrate, which is in the same ball-park. A disaster in the Rhineland town of Opac in 1921 seems to have been just as bad. I have seen write-ups talking about a million tons of ammonium nitrate in warehouses going up but that must have been journalistic license.The most recent was just two years ago, Beirut 2700 tonnes. -- Jasen.
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 7:40:36 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 14:57:33 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 1:09:16 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote: > >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV > >> > >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three > > > >Different kind of sad case. > > > >We are sad about virus and you are sad about batteries. > Power densities are scheduled to increase; that's a premise for all > sorts of applications, like grid storage and battery-powered aircraft. > Stuffing agressive chemical reactants very close together, and for > cheap, could be a challenge.When you are right, you are absolutely right. Stuffing such highly combustible reactants so close together is so dangerous. Gasoline and oxygen should be kept at least 6 feet apart in all vehicles. If they did that this would not happen. 1,400 cars in one fell swoop! https://www.thedrive.com/news/17287/massive-new-years-eve-parking-garage-fire-destroys-more-than-1400-cars-in-england Hundreds of cars destroyed, parts of the parking deck collapsed and even airline flights were delayed! https://www.thedrive.com/news/31763/norwegian-airport-parking-garage-fire-torches-hundreds-of-cars-grounds-flights It would be hard for any other energy means to rival the destructive power of gasoline. Isn't that the basis of the most massive conventional ordinances?> GM's global recall sounds expensive. > > I'm not sad, as long as nobody forces me to buy an electric car. > Actually, I'm rarely sad about anything, unless I curdle the bread > pudding; that's the main anxiety in my life.Yeah, no point in crying over spilt milk. You've already bought your ICE bomb. -- Rick C. - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:43:10 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> > The battery bank may have been sold to South Australia as am energy store, but a frequency correction machine it works a whole lot better than the traditional solutions, and the power it can deliver in the short term is the crucial metric in that job.That is why I like driving my Tesla. It is just so responsive to the accelerator. Every car I've driven has issues with the engine response to the throttle even if they are small. The most common is the abrupt turn on of power at light throttle settings. The Tesla has a nice gentle touch but is ultimately controlling 500+ HP. Nice car. Never caught fire either. I've seen any number of gasoline cars burnt up along the road. I've never heard of car insurance being higher if you keep it in a garage, but your home insurance is higher if you have an attached garage. Yeah, a gasoline fire spreads VERY quickly. -- Rick C. + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
