On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 11:07:54 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 05/08/2021 07:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> > On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 4:38:51 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> On a sunny day (Wed, 04 Aug 2021 13:09:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>> >> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
>> >> <pqslggdiehomu3o55...@4ax.com>:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers
>> >>> -are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three
>> >>
>> >> Batteries are always dangerous.
>> >
>> > Any stored energy is always dangerous. Big batteries are lot less dangerous than large chunks of chemical energy. Bulk storage of ammonium nitrate has produced a couple of mega-ton explosions.
>>
>> Unusual for you to get your facts so wrong, Bill. A few kilotons, maybe,
>> but megatons? Not a chance.
>
>Oops. My bad. I was thinking of Halifax in 1917 which was about three kilotons. A fire onboard the cargo ship SS Grandcamp docked at Texas City in 1947 detonated 2,300 tons of ammonium nitrate, which is in the same ball-park. A disaster in the Rhineland town of Opac in 1921 seems to have been just as bad. I have seen write-ups talking about a million tons of ammonium nitrate in warehouses going up but that must have been journalistic license.
My grandma lost a couple siblings in the Halifax explosion. The French
ship SS Mont-Blanc was loaded with explosives being shipped to Europe
from NY.
It collided with a Belgian relief ship and caught fire- the French
crew knew what was on board- they abandoned ship and made for
Dartmouth in their lifeboats as fast as they could (and mostly didn't
perish).
Meanwhile a crowd of curious on-lookers gathered near the harbour and
on nearby streets to watch the burning ships... a couple thousand
people died.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Reply by Flyguy●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
The cited article says:
"When applied directly to the cells of a battery in a thermal event AVD quickly extinguishes the flames"
When you have a battery pack on fire you will not have access to the cells that are on fire being surrounded by other cells, so AVD will have no chance of extinguishing the fire.
A little understood fact about lithium fires is that the temperature at which the separator melts is relatively low (95-110C). Once the separator melts the cell shorts and starts another fire. This results in thermal runaway. The only hope is pouring so much water on the fire that the temperature of the pack is kept below this melting temperature. Electric car fires have been put out only to start again a short time later once the fire fighting (water pouring) stops.
Reply by Rick C●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:55:16 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 7:35:07 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:09:16 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> > >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers-are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV
> > >>
> > >> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three
> > >
> > >
> > >This is so typical of the lack of intelligence in corporate and government management. Effective chemical fire extinguisher technology has been and continues to be developed to quench large lithium battery fires quickly and efficiency.
> > But all the reactants are close together, in a reacting heap. It
> > doesn't need air. The only way to stop the fire is to cool everything
> > off, or disperse it all.
> Problem is packing more energy together and using more plastic than steel. We don't hear too much about Leaf battery fire, because there are lots of steel between cells. It's low range, but i can add external long range storage when needed.
Trouble with the Leaf battery is the lack of temperature control so they wear out more quickly than they should. But if you only have 50 mile range, you won't notice so much when it drops to only 40.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by Rick C●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:43:10 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
>
> The battery bank may have been sold to South Australia as am energy store, but a frequency correction machine it works a whole lot better than the traditional solutions, and the power it can deliver in the short term is the crucial metric in that job.
That is why I like driving my Tesla. It is just so responsive to the accelerator. Every car I've driven has issues with the engine response to the throttle even if they are small. The most common is the abrupt turn on of power at light throttle settings. The Tesla has a nice gentle touch but is ultimately controlling 500+ HP.
Nice car. Never caught fire either. I've seen any number of gasoline cars burnt up along the road. I've never heard of car insurance being higher if you keep it in a garage, but your home insurance is higher if you have an attached garage. Yeah, a gasoline fire spreads VERY quickly.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by Rick C●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 7:40:36 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> GM's global recall sounds expensive.
>
> I'm not sad, as long as nobody forces me to buy an electric car.
> Actually, I'm rarely sad about anything, unless I curdle the bread
> pudding; that's the main anxiety in my life.
Yeah, no point in crying over spilt milk. You've already bought your ICE bomb.
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by Jasen Betts●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On 2021-08-05, Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 11:07:54 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 05/08/2021 07:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> > On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 4:38:51 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> On a sunny day (Wed, 04 Aug 2021 13:09:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>> >> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
>> >> <pqslggdiehomu3o55...@4ax.com>:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/while-they-were-asleep-their-teslas-burned-in-the-garage-it-e2-80-99s-a-risk-many-automakers
>> >>> -are-taking-seriously/ar-AAMVBlV
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three
>> >>
>> >> Batteries are always dangerous.
>> >
>> > Any stored energy is always dangerous. Big batteries are lot less dangerous than large chunks of chemical energy. Bulk storage of ammonium nitrate has produced a couple of mega-ton explosions.
>>
>> Unusual for you to get your facts so wrong, Bill. A few kilotons, maybe,
>> but megatons? Not a chance.
>
> Oops. My bad. I was thinking of Halifax in 1917 which was about three kilotons. A fire onboard the cargo ship SS Grandcamp docked at Texas City in 1947 detonated 2,300 tons of ammonium nitrate, which is in the same ball-park. A disaster in the Rhineland town of Opac in 1921 seems to have been just as bad. I have seen write-ups talking about a million tons of ammonium nitrate in warehouses going up but that must have been journalistic license.
The most recent was just two years ago, Beirut 2700 tonnes.
--
Jasen.
https://www.theexplodingwhale.com/evidence/resources/dave-barry-article/
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:29:29 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
I guess local fire departments would have to haul around tanker
trainers of this stuff.
Battery packs could be designed with space between the cells to let
this stuff in. Makes them bigger.
Lithium battery fires in garages are at the very least bad press for
electric cars.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
The best designs are necessarily accidental.
Reply by Ed Lee●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> There's no reason it can't be scaled up for the 3MW jobs.
No need to save burning batteries. Just let them burn out. Perhaps using smaller containers and space them out apart. There are plenty of spaces around the power plant.
Reply by Fred Bloggs●August 5, 20212021-08-05
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 10:35:07 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: