On 1/1/20 11:38 PM, bitrex wrote:> On 1/1/20 11:24 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:39:43 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >> >>> On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bill Sloman wrote... >>>>>> >>>>>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >>>>>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >>>>>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >>>>>> available off the shelf. >>>>> >>>>> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio >>>>> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". >>>> >>>> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in >>>> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. >>>> >>>> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC >>>> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design >>>> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the >>>> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the >>>> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. >>>> >>>> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is >>>> already conforming. >>>> >>>> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost >>>> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly >>>> transformer is just the start of a power supply. >>>> >>> >>> How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their >>> products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, >>> too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal >>> off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is. >> >> Do many certify their products? In europe and asia, they seem to just >> buy CE stickers in bulk. >> >> Some British friends told me that CE means Can't Enforce. >> >> >> > > I didn't know if there was some level of standards certification between > the CE self-policing and getting a UL certification on the mains-powered > equipment which in addition to the hefty initial fees and re-cert fees > they have to regularly test to destruction some number of your products; > it's an expense that small "boutique" mfgrs probably can't afford when > they're only moving dozens or small-hundreds of units a year that cost > say $2000 per. > > That stuff has not ever been "my department" so far.My Behringer active rackmount equalizer that uses an internal toroidal mains transformer and linear-regulated PSU board isn't UL certified and they're a billion dollar multinational company. But the design is textbook.
high voltage charge pump
Started by ●December 30, 2019
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 2:45:47 AM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:53 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:39:54 AM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 15:13:25 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund > >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> >On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:18:56 PM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Bill Sloman wrote... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >> >> >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >> >> >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >> >> >> available off the shelf. > >> >> > > >> >> > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > >> >> > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > >> >> > >> >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > >> >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > >> >> > >> > > >> >True > >> > > >> >At our firm, we never use standard supplies. Price is king, so we need to find lowest cost. Even at low volumes, it pays to do a custom design > >> > > >> > > >> >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > >> >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > >> >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > >> >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > >> >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > >> >> > >> >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > >> >> already conforming. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Only true if your power requirement is below 15W. If your unit draws more, or the external supply you use can supply more > >> > > >> >Above 15W all the rules with fire comes into play, so the approval process is pretty much the same as approving your own custom supply. And the cost for the approval is not that high, complete product might be 15k USD for an advanced product with several insulation systems > >> > > >> >The hurdle with insulation systems is that it seems UL by amazing coincidence have an idea to only approve components/parts that is not part of the IEC system, so that one is forced to make both US and EU variants > >> > > >> >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > >> >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > >> >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. > >> >> > >> >Meanwell is expensive. But an easy solution. When you disassembly the Meanwell and competitor supplies, you find that they really are not that good. We did an internal products, just me and another guy, and in 12 months we had a solution that outprformed the Meanwell types in price and performance. > >> > > >> >Cheers > >> > > >> >Klaus > >> > >> > >> We have had excellent performance from MeanWell supplies. We've used > >> about 700 so far. > >> > > > >Our lowest volume products are normaly 10k units > > > >Max volume 6 million > > > >> Can you make your own for this price? What did 24 man-months of > >> engineering cost? > >> > > > >We can make it for 10 times lower that price, with efficiency orders of magnitude better (sub 90% efficiency is a joke, cannot see why do would sell such bad products) > > 0.1 * $71 is $7.10. But without shipping, and in quantity, you'll have > to come in around $6 maybe. I sorta doubt that is possible. >I have the luxury of having a a lot of high volume parts running in current products (many more than 20 mill pcs per year), so I can cherry pick the low cost ones and use in this supply For the custom part, you can do tricks on the pricing of the common mode inductors and transformers that will shock you. Those 2 parts are the most expensive parts in the construction. But it means you have to divert away from your COTS magnetics, and you do not seem to like that. You should reconsider, the price is a different ballgame when you go into deep dialogue with the manufactor Also you can do tricks that can remove certain parts that one would normally use, but I cannot disclose those details here for IP reasons> How can an efficiency be an order of magnitude above 90%? 900% ? >When you are talking about magnitudes in efficiency and your are above 95%, any 1% increase is really a monumental effort and takes real creative engineering Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 4:39:49 AM UTC+1, bitrex wrote:> On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Bill Sloman wrote... > >>> > >>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >>> > >>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >>> available off the shelf. > >> > >> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > >> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > > > > Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > > most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > > > > I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > > boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > > around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > > conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > > world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > > > > It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > > already conforming. > > > > A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > > of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > > transformer is just the start of a power supply. > > > > How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their > products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, > too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal > off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is.That is dangerous In CE you can ship the product, if you are sure you comply with the regulations Trouble is, if they ask for the test results, you must be able to provide them with days of leadtime Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 5:42:07 AM UTC+1, bitrex wrote:> On 1/1/20 11:38 PM, bitrex wrote: > > On 1/1/20 11:24 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:39:43 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > >> > >>> On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>>> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Bill Sloman wrote... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >>>>>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >>>>>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >>>>>> available off the shelf. > >>>>> > >>>>> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > >>>>> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > >>>> > >>>> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > >>>> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > >>>> > >>>> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > >>>> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > >>>> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > >>>> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > >>>> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > >>>> > >>>> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > >>>> already conforming. > >>>> > >>>> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > >>>> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > >>>> transformer is just the start of a power supply. > >>>> > >>> > >>> How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their > >>> products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, > >>> too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal > >>> off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is. > >> > >> Do many certify their products? In europe and asia, they seem to just > >> buy CE stickers in bulk. > >> > >> Some British friends told me that CE means Can't Enforce. > >> > >> > >> > > > > I didn't know if there was some level of standards certification between > > the CE self-policing and getting a UL certification on the mains-powered > > equipment which in addition to the hefty initial fees and re-cert fees > > they have to regularly test to destruction some number of your products; > > it's an expense that small "boutique" mfgrs probably can't afford when > > they're only moving dozens or small-hundreds of units a year that cost > > say $2000 per. > > > > That stuff has not ever been "my department" so far. > > My Behringer active rackmount equalizer that uses an internal toroidal > mains transformer and linear-regulated PSU board isn't UL certified and > they're a billion dollar multinational company. But the design is textbook.That is really a betting game. If they have a person injured, they could be out of business from the lawsuit
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 3:14:02 PM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in > news:7a9e5ef8-e432-4a2c-ab3b-f292fda4a150@googlegroups.com: > > > Some people are better at keeping switching ripple off the rails > > at the device than you seem to be. Careful filtering does take > > skills as well as care, but some of us can manage it. > > You are an idiot. COTS supply. Switcher or linear. > > "Careful filtering"? We did not design them, we only buy and use > them, idiot.Specify, buy and use them. Or is the specification stage above your pay grade? The filtering is between the output of the supply and device it is powering. Some power supplies do have the nasty habit of spitting high frequency current into every earth connection they can get at, and blocking that can take an effort. There are commercial off-shelf-devices that are better behaved, and correspondingly easier to tame. If you don't care what you buy, or at the mercy of a buying department who can buy anything they like as long as it is cheap and doesn't actually let it's output move far out of tolerance to be actually destructive the job becomes rather more demanding. Your original claim was that " We had some very noise sensitive devices that we were only able to power with linear supplies." You had enough control over what you used to reject switching power supplies. If you'd had a better grasp of what you were doing you could have rejected the noisier switching power supplies. You do seem to lack the kind of design skills that would let you filter the power rails at the noise sensitive device you were hanging off them. Some people have been known to put little local linear regulators at the sensitive device - that wastes a bit of power but can give you a lot of rail noise rejection at low frequencies where passive filtering devices get a bit bulky. But that's a design choice, not am absolute requirement. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 3:24:47 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:39:43 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > > >On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Bill Sloman wrote... > >>>> > >>>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >>>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >>>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >>>> > >>>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >>>> available off the shelf. > >>> > >>> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > >>> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > >> > >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > >> > >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > >> > >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > >> already conforming. > >> > >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. > >> > > > >How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their > >products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, > >too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal > >off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is. > > Do many certify their products? In europe and asia, they seem to just > buy CE stickers in bulk. > > Some British friends told me that CE means Can't Enforce. > > > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message news:qudoej$sil$1@reader2.panix.com...> Win - In this case, the existing power supply is between 175 & 200 volts. > The needed > supply is 12 volts. Similar to a nonisolated dc supply from a 115 volt ac > line > I suspect there is such a device on the market, but proper search terms > are > required.LinkSwitch. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:10:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Williams wrote:> "Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message > news:qudoej$sil$1@reader2.panix.com... > > Win - In this case, the existing power supply is between 175 & 200 volts. > > The needed > > supply is 12 volts. Similar to a nonisolated dc supply from a 115 volt ac > > line > > I suspect there is such a device on the market, but proper search terms > > are > > required. > > LinkSwitch. >Don't buy from Power Integrations. They have dubious sales techniquies and the products from OnSemi and Diodes are better Use NCP10670 for example
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
Klaus Kragelund wrote...> > On Thursday, January 2, 2020, John Larkin wrote: >> >> Can you make your own for this price? What did 24 >> man-months of engineering cost? > > Sub 90% efficiency does indicate they just settled > for a PFC and flyback design, which is a bad move.I agree, it's a shame when high-power supplies have poor efficiencies. I recently purchased a 48-volt 600W Meanwell supply, recommended for use with a highly-engineered Chinese regulator found on Alibaba. :-) SE-600-48, only $72 on Amazon, with free shipping. Same unit as JL? Its efficiency spec is 88%. If I were to use it 24-7 at 300W, its extra 7% loss compared to a 95% unit, amounts to an extra 920 kWh over 5 years. At our 20-cent/kWh rate in NE, that'd cost us an extra $184 for electricity, dramatically wiping out any savings. {Its actual use will only be occasional, on the bench.} However, I think its 88% efficiency spec is for 600W full power. Surely it'll be better at normal operating levels? But it's clearly a very old design, still being cranked out in volume. For example, the mains voltage is selected by a switch (!). I won't be flyback, at 600W, but there's also no mention of PFC. And its 2019 datasheet says, do not use within the EU. Haha. -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in news:23103e40-ea55-4d4b-b33c-946330e7c99b@googlegroups.com:> Specify, buy and use them. Or is the specification stage above > your pay grade? >COTS, idiot. NOT 'specify'. THAT would be 'custom', not COTS. With COTS, one gets what the industry grows to accept. The high end, super quiet stuff is expensive and at that point a custom is the way to go. Fuck you and all your lame fucking cracks, you fucking retard. I used to make power supplies that had ripple ratings you never ever saw in your entire pathetic life, asswipe.
