On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:18:56 PM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > >Bill Sloman wrote... > >> > >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >>> > >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >> > >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >> available off the shelf. > > > > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > > Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. >True At our firm, we never use standard supplies. Price is king, so we need to find lowest cost. Even at low volumes, it pays to do a custom design> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > > It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > already conforming. >Only true if your power requirement is below 15W. If your unit draws more, or the external supply you use can supply more Above 15W all the rules with fire comes into play, so the approval process is pretty much the same as approving your own custom supply. And the cost for the approval is not that high, complete product might be 15k USD for an advanced product with several insulation systems The hurdle with insulation systems is that it seems UL by amazing coincidence have an idea to only approve components/parts that is not part of the IEC system, so that one is forced to make both US and EU variants> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > transformer is just the start of a power supply. >Meanwell is expensive. But an easy solution. When you disassembly the Meanwell and competitor supplies, you find that they really are not that good. We did an internal products, just me and another guy, and in 12 months we had a solution that outprformed the Meanwell types in price and performance. Cheers Klaus
high voltage charge pump
Started by ●December 30, 2019
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 15:13:25 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:18:56 PM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> >Bill Sloman wrote... >> >> >> >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >> >>> >> >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >> >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >> >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >> >> >> >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >> >> available off the shelf. >> > >> > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio >> > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". >> >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. >> > >True > >At our firm, we never use standard supplies. Price is king, so we need to find lowest cost. Even at low volumes, it pays to do a custom design > > >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. >> >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is >> already conforming. >> > >Only true if your power requirement is below 15W. If your unit draws more, or the external supply you use can supply more > >Above 15W all the rules with fire comes into play, so the approval process is pretty much the same as approving your own custom supply. And the cost for the approval is not that high, complete product might be 15k USD for an advanced product with several insulation systems > >The hurdle with insulation systems is that it seems UL by amazing coincidence have an idea to only approve components/parts that is not part of the IEC system, so that one is forced to make both US and EU variants > >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. >> >Meanwell is expensive. But an easy solution. When you disassembly the Meanwell and competitor supplies, you find that they really are not that good. We did an internal products, just me and another guy, and in 12 months we had a solution that outprformed the Meanwell types in price and performance. > >Cheers > >KlausWe have had excellent performance from MeanWell supplies. We've used about 700 so far. Can you make your own for this price? What did 24 man-months of engineering cost? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G8UDEQ8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 That's the qty 1 price, with shipping. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:39:54 AM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 15:13:25 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:18:56 PM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >Bill Sloman wrote... > >> >> > >> >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >> >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >> >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >> >> > >> >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >> >> available off the shelf. > >> > > >> > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > >> > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > >> > >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > >> > > > >True > > > >At our firm, we never use standard supplies. Price is king, so we need to find lowest cost. Even at low volumes, it pays to do a custom design > > > > > >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > >> > >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > >> already conforming. > >> > > > >Only true if your power requirement is below 15W. If your unit draws more, or the external supply you use can supply more > > > >Above 15W all the rules with fire comes into play, so the approval process is pretty much the same as approving your own custom supply. And the cost for the approval is not that high, complete product might be 15k USD for an advanced product with several insulation systems > > > >The hurdle with insulation systems is that it seems UL by amazing coincidence have an idea to only approve components/parts that is not part of the IEC system, so that one is forced to make both US and EU variants > > > >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. > >> > >Meanwell is expensive. But an easy solution. When you disassembly the Meanwell and competitor supplies, you find that they really are not that good. We did an internal products, just me and another guy, and in 12 months we had a solution that outprformed the Meanwell types in price and performance. > > > >Cheers > > > >Klaus > > > We have had excellent performance from MeanWell supplies. We've used > about 700 so far. >Our lowest volume products are normaly 10k units Max volume 6 million> Can you make your own for this price? What did 24 man-months of > engineering cost? >We can make it for 10 times lower that price, with efficiency orders of magnitude better (sub 90% efficiency is a joke, cannot see why do would sell such bad products) About 100k USD for NRE (I only worked on i part time). Double that before we have a final product> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G8UDEQ8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > > > That's the qty 1 price, with shipping. >Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:39:54 AM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 15:13:25 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:18:56 PM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >Bill Sloman wrote... > >> >> > >> >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually > >> >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching > >> >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > >> >> > >> >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > >> >> available off the shelf. > >> > > >> > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > >> > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > >> > >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > >> > > > >True > > > >At our firm, we never use standard supplies. Price is king, so we need to find lowest cost. Even at low volumes, it pays to do a custom design > > > > > >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > >> > >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > >> already conforming. > >> > > > >Only true if your power requirement is below 15W. If your unit draws more, or the external supply you use can supply more > > > >Above 15W all the rules with fire comes into play, so the approval process is pretty much the same as approving your own custom supply. And the cost for the approval is not that high, complete product might be 15k USD for an advanced product with several insulation systems > > > >The hurdle with insulation systems is that it seems UL by amazing coincidence have an idea to only approve components/parts that is not part of the IEC system, so that one is forced to make both US and EU variants > > > >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. > >> > >Meanwell is expensive. But an easy solution. When you disassembly the Meanwell and competitor supplies, you find that they really are not that good. We did an internal products, just me and another guy, and in 12 months we had a solution that outprformed the Meanwell types in price and performance. > > > >Cheers > > > >Klaus > > > We have had excellent performance from MeanWell supplies. We've used > about 700 so far. > > Can you make your own for this price? What did 24 man-months of > engineering cost? > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G8UDEQ8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > >Sub 90% efficiency does indicate they just settled for a PFC and flyback design, which is a bad move Do you have a picture of the PCB so we can what they have chosen ? Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:53 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:39:54 AM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 15:13:25 -0800 (PST), Klaus Kragelund >> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 5:18:56 PM UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Bill Sloman wrote... >> >> >> >> >> >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >> >> >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >> >> >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >> >> >> >> >> >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >> >> >> available off the shelf. >> >> > >> >> > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio >> >> > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". >> >> >> >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in >> >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. >> >> >> > >> >True >> > >> >At our firm, we never use standard supplies. Price is king, so we need to find lowest cost. Even at low volumes, it pays to do a custom design >> > >> > >> >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC >> >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design >> >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the >> >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the >> >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. >> >> >> >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is >> >> already conforming. >> >> >> > >> >Only true if your power requirement is below 15W. If your unit draws more, or the external supply you use can supply more >> > >> >Above 15W all the rules with fire comes into play, so the approval process is pretty much the same as approving your own custom supply. And the cost for the approval is not that high, complete product might be 15k USD for an advanced product with several insulation systems >> > >> >The hurdle with insulation systems is that it seems UL by amazing coincidence have an idea to only approve components/parts that is not part of the IEC system, so that one is forced to make both US and EU variants >> > >> >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost >> >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly >> >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. >> >> >> >Meanwell is expensive. But an easy solution. When you disassembly the Meanwell and competitor supplies, you find that they really are not that good. We did an internal products, just me and another guy, and in 12 months we had a solution that outprformed the Meanwell types in price and performance. >> > >> >Cheers >> > >> >Klaus >> >> >> We have had excellent performance from MeanWell supplies. We've used >> about 700 so far. >> > >Our lowest volume products are normaly 10k units > >Max volume 6 million > >> Can you make your own for this price? What did 24 man-months of >> engineering cost? >> > >We can make it for 10 times lower that price, with efficiency orders of magnitude better (sub 90% efficiency is a joke, cannot see why do would sell such bad products)0.1 * $71 is $7.10. But without shipping, and in quantity, you'll have to come in around $6 maybe. I sorta doubt that is possible. How can an efficiency be an order of magnitude above 90%? 900% ? -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> Bill Sloman wrote... >>> >>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >>>> >>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >>> >>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >>> available off the shelf. >> >> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio >> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". > > Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in > most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. > > I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC > boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design > around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the > conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the > world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. > > It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is > already conforming. > > A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > transformer is just the start of a power supply. >How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is.
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 12:09:26 AM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in > news:ed80e9ba-d4a6-408a-8d87-a1c922ad7078@googlegroups.com: > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 4:32:52 PM UTC+11, > > jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:21:59 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com > >> wrote: > >> > >> >On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 17:57:13 UTC, > >> >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:44:13 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> > >> >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> >Using one capacitor and one diode to boost e.g. 3.3V logic > >> >> >output square wave to ~4.something to reliably drive a white > >> >> >or blue LED at a few mA is OK too but it's not really > >> >> >high-investment charge pump design here > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Something like this works... > >> >> > >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/azsc1vigh8vepoq/Led_Pump.JPG?raw=1 > >> >> > >> >> but the boost ratio is small and efficiency doesn't matter > >> >> much. > >> > > >> >You could probably be cheeky and provide the ac direct from the > >> >psu transformer in many cases. CR could limit the current. > >> > >> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually buy > >> fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching power > >> supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > > > > Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't available > > off the shelf. > > You are Mumbling... again. COTS is a big world.But bizarre voltage rails can be very idiosyncratic. It's your ignorance that is showing here, not mine.> > Once you've got far enough inside an enclosed box to get at the > > power transformer that it almost always contains, > > Ooops... Billy is obsolete. He refers to the mains input > transformer paradigm. THAT is what is not around much more.What makes you think that a power transformer is a mains transformer?> We had some very noise sensitive devices that we were only able to > power with linear supplies. Short of that, not much reason to use > one ever again. Vastly less efficient than a switcher.Some people are better at keeping switching ripple off the rails at the device than you seem to be. Careful filtering does take skills as well as care, but some of us can manage it.> > it isn't standards-compliant any more. > > Looking again like you never were. You certainly are not right > now.DLUNU is certain about quite few things where he is less well-informed about than he likes to think. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in news:7a9e5ef8-e432-4a2c-ab3b-f292fda4a150@googlegroups.com:> Some people are better at keeping switching ripple off the rails > at the device than you seem to be. Careful filtering does take > skills as well as care, but some of us can manage it. >You are an idiot. COTS supply. Switcher or linear. "Careful filtering"? We did not design them, we only buy and use them, idiot.
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:39:43 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:>On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Bill Sloman wrote... >>>> >>>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >>>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >>>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >>>> >>>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >>>> available off the shelf. >>> >>> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio >>> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". >> >> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in >> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. >> >> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC >> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design >> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the >> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the >> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. >> >> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is >> already conforming. >> >> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost >> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly >> transformer is just the start of a power supply. >> > >How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their >products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, >too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal >off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is.Do many certify their products? In europe and asia, they seem to just buy CE stickers in bulk. Some British friends told me that CE means Can't Enforce. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 2, 20202020-01-02
On 1/1/20 11:24 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:39:43 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > >> On 1/1/20 11:18 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Bill Sloman wrote... >>>>> >>>>> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >>>>>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >>>>>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >>>>> >>>>> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >>>>> available off the shelf. >>>> >>>> A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio >>>> bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". >>> >>> Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in >>> most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. >>> >>> I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC >>> boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design >>> around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the >>> conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the >>> world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. >>> >>> It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is >>> already conforming. >>> >>> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost >>> of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly >>> transformer is just the start of a power supply. >>> >> >> How do small companies that make e.g. tube guitar amps certify their >> products at reasonable cost? I don't think many of them are UL listed, >> too expensive. They don't have much choice but to use an internal >> off-line linear supply they designed themselves such as it is. > > Do many certify their products? In europe and asia, they seem to just > buy CE stickers in bulk. > > Some British friends told me that CE means Can't Enforce. > > >I didn't know if there was some level of standards certification between the CE self-policing and getting a UL certification on the mains-powered equipment which in addition to the hefty initial fees and re-cert fees they have to regularly test to destruction some number of your products; it's an expense that small "boutique" mfgrs probably can't afford when they're only moving dozens or small-hundreds of units a year that cost say $2000 per. That stuff has not ever been "my department" so far.
