On 12/31/19 12:57 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:44:13 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > >> On 12/31/19 12:40 PM, bitrex wrote: >>> On 12/31/19 12:12 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:28:03 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Input varies between 150 & 200 volts dc. Current is at the 12 volt >>>>> output is >>>>> 60 ma. There will probably be a 6 volt negative output also but that >>>>> will >>>>> cause little added circuitry. Simply stated, 2 npn's, 1 pnp, 6 >>>>> resisters & >>>>> 2 1nf capacitors comprise the device. That''s doable but cumbersome >>>>> in pcb >>>>> real estate and design time. An integrated package would be a neater >>>>> fix. >>>>> >>>>> Hul >>>> >>>> Schematic? A charge pump may be no more efficient than resistors. >>>> >>>> People usually bottom-post on usenet. Mixed posting gets confusing. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> in my experience the only types of charge pumps which aren't dreadful >>> are CW multipliers to make high voltages at very small currents, and the >>> types that come in IC packages that can use techniques like fractional >>> conversion to improve their efficiency/regulation and can use internal >>> switches that have had their parameters tuned to suit the chip application. >>> >>> Every other time I thought I'd use a roll-your-own charge pump for >>> something I've ended up going inductor-based because naive charge pumps >>> made with logic or discretes suck harder IRL than the by-the-book >>> calculations would lead you to believe >>> >> >> Using one capacitor and one diode to boost e.g. 3.3V logic output square >> wave to ~4.something to reliably drive a white or blue LED at a few mA >> is OK too but it's not really high-investment charge pump design here > > > Something like this works... > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/azsc1vigh8vepoq/Led_Pump.JPG?raw=1 > > but the boost ratio is small and efficiency doesn't matter much. >I recall there was a long thread of discussion about that circuit at one time number of years ago! It works, at some frequency, whatever it is. For higher currents off-the-shelf CM boost and buck controllers are so good, 1 MHz+ operating frequency makes for small board area, the control loop is pretty easy to stabilize for loads that don't get too crazy. If the OP needs a really low-cost solution for 150/200 -> 12 the self-oscillating/hysteric flyback is a classic and a negative aux voltage is easily done by adding a winding. Don't even really need a controller at all for well-behaved loads
high voltage charge pump
Started by ●December 30, 2019
Reply by ●December 31, 20192019-12-31
Reply by ●December 31, 20192019-12-31
On 31/12/2019 4:28 pm, Hul Tytus wrote:> Input varies between 150 & 200 volts dc. Current is at the 12 volt output is > 60 ma. There will probably be a 6 volt negative output also but that will > cause little added circuitry. Simply stated, 2 npn's, 1 pnp, 6 resisters & > 2 1nf capacitors comprise the device. That''s doable but cumbersome in pcb > real estate and design time. An integrated package would be a neater fix. > > HulDoes that parts list (3Q, 6R, 2C) represent your load circuit or your power supply design that you want to refine? piglet
Reply by ●December 31, 20192019-12-31
On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 17:57:13 UTC, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:44:13 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:> >Using one capacitor and one diode to boost e.g. 3.3V logic output square > >wave to ~4.something to reliably drive a white or blue LED at a few mA > >is OK too but it's not really high-investment charge pump design here > > > Something like this works... > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/azsc1vigh8vepoq/Led_Pump.JPG?raw=1 > > but the boost ratio is small and efficiency doesn't matter much.You could probably be cheeky and provide the ac direct from the psu transformer in many cases. CR could limit the i. NT
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:21:59 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:>On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 17:57:13 UTC, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:44:13 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > >> >Using one capacitor and one diode to boost e.g. 3.3V logic output square >> >wave to ~4.something to reliably drive a white or blue LED at a few mA >> >is OK too but it's not really high-investment charge pump design here >> >> >> Something like this works... >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/azsc1vigh8vepoq/Led_Pump.JPG?raw=1 >> >> but the boost ratio is small and efficiency doesn't matter much. > >You could probably be cheeky and provide the ac direct from the psu transformer in many cases. CR could limit the i. > > >NTWe don't use power transformers much these days. We usually buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 4:32:52 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:21:59 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > > >On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 17:57:13 UTC, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:44:13 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: > > > >> >Using one capacitor and one diode to boost e.g. 3.3V logic output square > >> >wave to ~4.something to reliably drive a white or blue LED at a few mA > >> >is OK too but it's not really high-investment charge pump design here > >> > >> > >> Something like this works... > >> > >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/azsc1vigh8vepoq/Led_Pump.JPG?raw=1 > >> > >> but the boost ratio is small and efficiency doesn't matter much. > > > >You could probably be cheeky and provide the ac direct from the psu transformer in many cases. CR could limit the current. > > We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually buy fully > standards-compliant, universal-input switching power supplies, > wall-warts or enclosed boxes.Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't available off the shelf. Once you've got far enough inside an enclosed box to get at the power transformer that it almost always contains, it isn't standards-compliant any more. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in news:ed80e9ba-d4a6-408a-8d87-a1c922ad7078@googlegroups.com:> On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 4:32:52 PM UTC+11, > jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:21:59 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >> >On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 17:57:13 UTC, >> >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 12:44:13 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> >> >> wrote: >> > >> >> >Using one capacitor and one diode to boost e.g. 3.3V logic >> >> >output square wave to ~4.something to reliably drive a white >> >> >or blue LED at a few mA is OK too but it's not really >> >> >high-investment charge pump design here >> >> >> >> >> >> Something like this works... >> >> >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/azsc1vigh8vepoq/Led_Pump.JPG?raw=1 >> >> >> >> but the boost ratio is small and efficiency doesn't matter >> >> much. >> > >> >You could probably be cheeky and provide the ac direct from the >> >psu transformer in many cases. CR could limit the current. >> >> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually buy >> fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching power >> supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > > Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't available > off the shelf.You are Mumbling... again. COTS is abig world.> Once you've got far enough inside an enclosed box to get at the > power transformer that it almost always contains,Ooops... Billy is obsolete. He refers to the mains input transformer paradigm. THAT is what is not around much more. We had some very noise sensitive devices that we were only able to power with linear supplies. Short of that, not much reason to use one ever again. Vastly less efficient than a switcher.> it isn't > standards-compliant any more.Looking again like you never were. You certainly are not right now.
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
Bill Sloman wrote...> > On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >> >> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. > > Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't > available off the shelf.A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer". -- Thanks, - Win
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On 1 Jan 2020 05:34:23 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:>Bill Sloman wrote... >> >> On January 1, 2020, jlarkin wrote: >>> >>> We don't use power transformers much these days. We usually >>> buy fully standards-compliant, universal-input switching >>> power supplies, wall-warts or enclosed boxes. >> >> Which is fine until you need a power rail which isn't >> available off the shelf. > > A simple solution to that problem is to add a fixed-ratio > bus converter, see AoE x-Chapter 9x.16, "DC transformer".Big switching supplies, for serious power busses, are available in most any voltage, and are available as adjustable. I usually build a lot of secondary linear and switching regs, on my PC boards, that never get near the AC line, so I can generally design around a 24 volt wart or equivalent. We buy supplies with all the conformance stickers, real or maybe not, and that work anywhere in the world without tap switching and fuse changing hazards. It's a lot easier to do a CE compliance doc if the power supply is already conforming. A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly transformer is just the start of a power supply. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 8:18:56 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> A MeanWell 800 watt switcher box is a fraction of the weight and cost > of an 800 watt transformer, and outputs clean DC. The heavy ugly > transformer is just the start of a power supply.That's where the analog chipmakers are making a profit; lots of point-of-load power supplies, using single-source chip solutions. The MeanWell unit doesn't have a lot of single-source parts. Five years from now, you'll be able to buy an off-the-shelf replacement for the MeanWell part of your power supply solution. How about the other parts?
Reply by ●January 1, 20202020-01-01
Thats the power supply circuitry with out it's load. The load would be the comunicating cap & probably an inductor in series and sone diodes & 1 or 2 zeners & some more caps for dc output. Unfortunantly, there doesn't appear to be an integrated equivilent. Hul piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:> On 31/12/2019 4:28 pm, Hul Tytus wrote: > > Input varies between 150 & 200 volts dc. Current is at the 12 volt output is > > 60 ma. There will probably be a 6 volt negative output also but that will > > cause little added circuitry. Simply stated, 2 npn's, 1 pnp, 6 resisters & > > 2 1nf capacitors comprise the device. That''s doable but cumbersome in pcb > > real estate and design time. An integrated package would be a neater fix. > > > > Hul> Does that parts list (3Q, 6R, 2C) represent your load circuit or your > power supply design that you want to refine?> piglet
