On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:> On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > > > > 3 cents in volume: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > > > > Cheers > > > > Klaus > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago. Rick C.
3 cent microcontroller
Started by ●October 13, 2018
Reply by ●October 18, 20182018-10-18
Reply by ●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote: > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > > > > > > 3 cents in volume: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Klaus > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module. > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago. > > Rick C.At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper. The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits. -sp
Reply by ●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:> On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote: > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > > > > > > > > 3 cents in volume: > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Klaus > > > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. > > > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module. > > > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago. > > > > Rick C. > > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper. > > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters. My product has an FPGA so a crystal would require some effort to qualify a crystal circuit and at <10k volumes it wasn't worth the effort. Then I found the way the customer uses the board, all the clocks are supplied externally so the oscillator package was removed entirely. That's the cheapest solution yet! Rick C.
Reply by ●October 19, 20182018-10-19
On Friday, 19 October 2018 02:29:41 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote: > > On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote: > > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > > > > > > > > > > 3 cents in volume: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > Klaus > > > > > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. > > > > > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module. > > > > > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago. > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper. > > > > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits. > > At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package. Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MOSFETs (n-channel) https://i.imgur.com/413AXKX.png That's 1.7 cents USD. --sp
Reply by ●October 19, 20182018-10-19
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:> On Friday, 19 October 2018 02:29:41 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote: > > > On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote: > > > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 cents in volume: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > Klaus > > > > > > > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. > > > > > > > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module. > > > > > > > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago. > > > > > > > > Rick C. > > > > > > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper. > > > > > > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits. > > > > At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters. > > I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package. > > Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MOSFETs (n-channel) > > https://i.imgur.com/413AXKX.png > > That's 1.7 cents USD.Yeah, guess I forgot a crystal can't be put in a plastic package... or can it? I seem to recall PC clock chips including the crystal and battery in plastic. Rick C.
Reply by ●October 20, 20182018-10-20
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 9:01:06 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:> On 2018-10-19, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, speff wrote: > >> On Friday, 19 October 2018 02:29:41 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > >> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote: > >> > > On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: > >> > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote: > >> > > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >> > > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > 3 cents in volume: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Cheers > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Klaus > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module. > >> > > > > >> > > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago. > >> > > > > >> > > > Rick C. > >> > > > >> > > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper. > >> > > > >> > > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits. > >> > > >> > At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters. > >> > >> I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package. > >> > >> Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MOSFETs (n-channel) > >> > >> https://i.imgur.com/413AXKX.png > >> > >> That's 1.7 cents USD. > > > > Yeah, guess I forgot a crystal can't be put in a plastic package... or can it? I seem to recall PC clock chips including the crystal and battery in plastic. > > I've disassembled those it was a regular PDIP chip, CR2032 button cell and and a metal-can tuning fork crystal all > potted in a little ABS box > > I think they run crystals in a vacuum. glass/ceramic packages are available. > > eg: https://www.digikey.com/en/datasheets/abracon-llc/abracon-llc-abm8gYes, that's what they use, but it is more expensive than plastic. Heck, this thread is about a 3 cent MCU in a plastic package. Crystals are packaged in what would appear to be very inexpensive metal cans. I would think the package is the biggest part of the price difference although I guess I don't really know that much about it. An oscillator requires a chip, a crystal and I would expect a cap or two. I wonder if the assembly cost is significant in an oscillator. I expect no more than putting four parts on the PCB vs. one. Rick C.
Reply by ●October 20, 20182018-10-20
On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 3:02:54 PM UTC+2, David Brown wrote:> On 16/10/18 01:34, Clifford Heath wrote: > > On 15/10/18 23:44, David Brown wrote: > >> No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to > >> work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, > >> but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous > >> monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the > >> 8051 core in the EFM8BB1). > > > > It's noteworthy that you didn't even invoke the demon PIC12... :) > > > > Just be careful not to say its name three times in a row! > > Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for > cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them - > or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)The quotes we have gotten for the PIC series were above the Silabs and ATTiny parts. So no need to push the PIC onto programmers :-)