On 15/10/18 14:06, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:32:00 AM UTC+2, David Brown wrote: >> On 15/10/18 10:00, Klaus Kragelund wrote: >>> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 9:59:07 AM UTC+2, David Brown >>> wrote: >>>> On 13/10/18 16:43, Winfield Hill wrote: >>>>> Klaus Kragelund wrote... >>>>>> >>>>>> Dealer site: https://lcsc.com/search?q=Microcontroller >>>>> >>>>> I found a critical Chinese part at LCSC, that's not available >>>>> from the usual suppliers, for 30 cents each, and LCSC >>>>> shipped 100 pieces by some type of DHL service, for only $10, >>>>> and they arrived in four days. Awesome! >>>>> >>>> >>>> If you are happy to go up to $0.30 rather than $0.03, then you >>>> can get ARM Cortex-M0 parts from NXP and other more mainstream >>>> suppliers. >>> >>> If I was able to go up, I could choose the Silabs EFM8BB1 or >>> ATTiny, they both come in at about 15 US cents, half that of the >>> Cortex M0+ devices >>> >> >> There is a vast difference in the quality of the cpu core between >> these two chips and the M0, if that is important to you. >> > > By quality, do you mean the Field Failure Rate of the die? I do not > expect an ARM device with many more transistors to have less failure > rate.... >No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the 8051 core in the EFM8BB1). Of course, for a small enough program and high enough volume, no one will listen to the programmers' complaints :-)
3 cent microcontroller
Started by ●October 13, 2018
Reply by ●October 15, 20182018-10-15
Reply by ●October 15, 20182018-10-15
On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 2:44:33 PM UTC+2, David Brown wrote:> On 15/10/18 14:06, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:32:00 AM UTC+2, David Brown wrote: > >> On 15/10/18 10:00, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >>> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 9:59:07 AM UTC+2, David Brown > >>> wrote: > >>>> On 13/10/18 16:43, Winfield Hill wrote: > >>>>> Klaus Kragelund wrote... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dealer site: https://lcsc.com/search?q=Microcontroller > >>>>> > >>>>> I found a critical Chinese part at LCSC, that's not available > >>>>> from the usual suppliers, for 30 cents each, and LCSC > >>>>> shipped 100 pieces by some type of DHL service, for only $10, > >>>>> and they arrived in four days. Awesome! > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> If you are happy to go up to $0.30 rather than $0.03, then you > >>>> can get ARM Cortex-M0 parts from NXP and other more mainstream > >>>> suppliers. > >>> > >>> If I was able to go up, I could choose the Silabs EFM8BB1 or > >>> ATTiny, they both come in at about 15 US cents, half that of the > >>> Cortex M0+ devices > >>> > >> > >> There is a vast difference in the quality of the cpu core between > >> these two chips and the M0, if that is important to you. > >> > > > > By quality, do you mean the Field Failure Rate of the die? I do not > > expect an ARM device with many more transistors to have less failure > > rate.... > > > > No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to > work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, > but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous > monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the > 8051 core in the EFM8BB1). > > Of course, for a small enough program and high enough volume, no one > will listen to the programmers' complaints :-)We have high volume, so the programmer can complain all he wants, HW rules
Reply by ●October 15, 20182018-10-15
On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 2:44:33 PM UTC+2, David Brown wrote:> On 15/10/18 14:06, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:32:00 AM UTC+2, David Brown wrote: > >> On 15/10/18 10:00, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >>> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 9:59:07 AM UTC+2, David Brown > >>> wrote: > >>>> On 13/10/18 16:43, Winfield Hill wrote: > >>>>> Klaus Kragelund wrote... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dealer site: https://lcsc.com/search?q=Microcontroller > >>>>> > >>>>> I found a critical Chinese part at LCSC, that's not available > >>>>> from the usual suppliers, for 30 cents each, and LCSC > >>>>> shipped 100 pieces by some type of DHL service, for only $10, > >>>>> and they arrived in four days. Awesome! > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> If you are happy to go up to $0.30 rather than $0.03, then you > >>>> can get ARM Cortex-M0 parts from NXP and other more mainstream > >>>> suppliers. > >>> > >>> If I was able to go up, I could choose the Silabs EFM8BB1 or > >>> ATTiny, they both come in at about 15 US cents, half that of the > >>> Cortex M0+ devices > >>> > >> > >> There is a vast difference in the quality of the cpu core between > >> these two chips and the M0, if that is important to you. > >> > > > > By quality, do you mean the Field Failure Rate of the die? I do not > > expect an ARM device with many more transistors to have less failure > > rate.... > > > > No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to > work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, > but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous > monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the > 8051 core in the EFM8BB1). > > Of course, for a small enough program and high enough volume, no one > will listen to the programmers' complaints :-)We have high volume, the programmers can complain all they want - in this case HW rules
Reply by ●October 15, 20182018-10-15
>> >> In total, we end up with 0.2+0.15+0.1=0.45 mm² chip area. >> Adding seal ring and kerf losses, this would still be less than 1mm² of >> silicon real estate. Using a low cost foundry it could indeed be >> possible to source this die for 0.01-0.02 USD. > > Typical cost for wafer, that I know off, is about 0,05 USD per mm2. So 0.025 USD for the die cost aloneThat certainly is not high volume pricing at an asian foundry. You may refer to this article: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/revenue-per-wafer-peaked-four-years-ago-2018-10/ So the die cost is closer to 0.01USD...
Reply by ●October 15, 20182018-10-15
On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 7:57:08 PM UTC+2, Tim wrote:> >> > >> In total, we end up with 0.2+0.15+0.1=0.45 mm² chip area. > >> Adding seal ring and kerf losses, this would still be less than 1mm² of > >> silicon real estate. Using a low cost foundry it could indeed be > >> possible to source this die for 0.01-0.02 USD. > > > > Typical cost for wafer, that I know off, is about 0,05 USD per mm2. So 0.025 USD for the die cost alone > > > That certainly is not high volume pricing at an asian foundry. You may > refer to this article: > > https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/revenue-per-wafer-peaked-four-years-ago-2018-10/ > > So the die cost is closer to 0.01USD...That is interesting. I have a price indication in the neighborhood of 1000 EUR per 8 inch wafer. I see that the link you provided is below half that figure But, it seems those a very big players, ultra high volumes. I have a low volume compared to that, only 400 wafers per year Cheers Klaus
Reply by ●October 15, 20182018-10-15
On 15/10/18 23:44, David Brown wrote:> No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to > work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, > but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous > monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the > 8051 core in the EFM8BB1).It's noteworthy that you didn't even invoke the demon PIC12... :) Clifford Heath.
Reply by ●October 16, 20182018-10-16
On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 4:44:46 PM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 7:57:08 PM UTC+2, Tim wrote: > > >> > > >> In total, we end up with 0.2+0.15+0.1=0.45 mm² chip area. > > >> Adding seal ring and kerf losses, this would still be less than 1mm² of > > >> silicon real estate. Using a low cost foundry it could indeed be > > >> possible to source this die for 0.01-0.02 USD. > > > > > > Typical cost for wafer, that I know off, is about 0,05 USD per mm2. So 0.025 USD for the die cost alone > > > > > > That certainly is not high volume pricing at an asian foundry. You may > > refer to this article: > > > > https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/revenue-per-wafer-peaked-four-years-ago-2018-10/ > > > > So the die cost is closer to 0.01USD... > > That is interesting. I have a price indication in the neighborhood of 1000 EUR per 8 inch wafer. I see that the link you provided is below half that figure > > But, it seems those a very big players, ultra high volumes. I have a low volume compared to that, only 400 wafers per yearWhy does the volume of your wafer really impact the cost much? I would expect fabbing a wafer to be highly automated so that the cost of changing from one design to another to be fairly small. The cost factor would be mostly in keeping the machine producing so the amortization is spread over many wafers. Does it really take much time or effort to change from one design to another? Rick C.
Reply by ●October 16, 20182018-10-16
On 16/10/18 01:34, Clifford Heath wrote:> On 15/10/18 23:44, David Brown wrote: >> No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to >> work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things, >> but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous >> monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the >> 8051 core in the EFM8BB1). > > It's noteworthy that you didn't even invoke the demon PIC12... :) >Just be careful not to say its name three times in a row! Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them - or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)
Reply by ●October 16, 20182018-10-16
David Brown wrote>Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for >cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them - >or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)That 12F has other virtues you do not so easily find in other micros: ; wms-0.1.asm ; Copyright (c) Jan Panteltje 2010-always. ; ; Temperature controller / thermostat replacement for Zanussi 913 washing machine. ; The original sensor has one make contact at 40 C that is in series with the mechanical timer clock, and one break contact at 90 C that is in series with the heating element. ; wms.asm for Microchip 12F629. ; From Microchhip program: TSTAT2~1.ASM. modified for RS232 ASCII out and PIC 12F629. ; see Microchip application notes 00720c.pdf (temp sensor using watch dog timer), and 00510e.pdf (for software serial out). Fixed old washing machine with it... Not hard to program at all.
Reply by ●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:> Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC > > 3 cents in volume: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w > > Cheers > > KlausNice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either. Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module. --sp
