Reply by Klaus Kragelund●October 20, 20182018-10-20
On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 3:02:54 PM UTC+2, David Brown wrote:
> On 16/10/18 01:34, Clifford Heath wrote:
> > On 15/10/18 23:44, David Brown wrote:
> >> No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to
> >> work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things,
> >> but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous
> >> monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the
> >> 8051 core in the EFM8BB1).
> >
> > It's noteworthy that you didn't even invoke the demon PIC12... :)
> >
>
> Just be careful not to say its name three times in a row!
>
> Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for
> cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them -
> or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)
The quotes we have gotten for the PIC series were above the Silabs and ATTiny parts. So no need to push the PIC onto programmers :-)
Reply by ●October 20, 20182018-10-20
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 9:01:06 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2018-10-19, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> >> On Friday, 19 October 2018 02:29:41 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> >> > > On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> >> > > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> >> > > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > 3 cents in volume:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Cheers
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Klaus
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Rick C.
> >> > >
> >> > > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
> >> > >
> >> > > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
> >> >
> >> > At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
> >>
> >> I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package.
> >>
> >> Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MOSFETs (n-channel)
> >>
> >> https://i.imgur.com/413AXKX.png
> >>
> >> That's 1.7 cents USD.
> >
> > Yeah, guess I forgot a crystal can't be put in a plastic package... or can it? I seem to recall PC clock chips including the crystal and battery in plastic.
>
> I've disassembled those it was a regular PDIP chip, CR2032 button cell and and a metal-can tuning fork crystal all
> potted in a little ABS box
>
> I think they run crystals in a vacuum. glass/ceramic packages are available.
>
> eg: https://www.digikey.com/en/datasheets/abracon-llc/abracon-llc-abm8g
Yes, that's what they use, but it is more expensive than plastic. Heck, this thread is about a 3 cent MCU in a plastic package.
Crystals are packaged in what would appear to be very inexpensive metal cans. I would think the package is the biggest part of the price difference although I guess I don't really know that much about it. An oscillator requires a chip, a crystal and I would expect a cap or two. I wonder if the assembly cost is significant in an oscillator. I expect no more than putting four parts on the PCB vs. one.
Rick C.
Reply by ●October 19, 20182018-10-19
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> On Friday, 19 October 2018 02:29:41 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3 cents in volume:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Klaus
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
> > > >
> > > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
> > > >
> > > > Rick C.
> > >
> > > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
> > >
> > > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
> >
> > At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
>
> I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package.
>
> Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MOSFETs (n-channel)
>
> https://i.imgur.com/413AXKX.png
>
> That's 1.7 cents USD.
Yeah, guess I forgot a crystal can't be put in a plastic package... or can it? I seem to recall PC clock chips including the crystal and battery in plastic.
Rick C.
Reply by speff●October 19, 20182018-10-19
On Friday, 19 October 2018 02:29:41 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> > On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
> > > > >
> > > > > 3 cents in volume:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > >
> > > > > Klaus
> > > >
> > > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
> > > >
> > > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
> > >
> > > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
> > >
> > > Rick C.
> >
> > At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
> >
> > The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
>
> At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
I would think somewhere in the dime range +/-. In a 5x7mm hermetic package.
Here's a shop with a special today on dual (back-to-back) 5A 25 milliohm MOSFETs (n-channel)
https://i.imgur.com/413AXKX.png
That's 1.7 cents USD.
--sp
Reply by ●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> > > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
> > > >
> > > > 3 cents in volume:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Klaus
> > >
> > > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
> > >
> > > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
> >
> > How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
> >
> > Rick C.
>
> At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
>
> The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
At 1k pieces I wouldn't care so much about a fraction of a dollar. I've always wondered how cheaply you can get an oscillator in a plastic package if you are running really high volumes where $0.10 matters.
My product has an FPGA so a crystal would require some effort to qualify a crystal circuit and at <10k volumes it wasn't worth the effort. Then I found the way the customer uses the board, all the clocks are supplied externally so the oscillator package was removed entirely. That's the cheapest solution yet!
Rick C.
Reply by speff●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 23:24:40 UTC+8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> > On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
> > >
> > > 3 cents in volume:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Klaus
> >
> > Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
> >
> > Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
>
> How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
>
> Rick C.
At Digikey 1K prices the difference is about 4-5:1 (0.60/0.13). Roughly the same ratio for China brands but umm rather cheaper.
The PIC ended up being the right choice in the case where precise clock frequency was a requirement, because it had some cool peripherals (programmable logic block etc.) that skimmed down the BOM- would have required a CMOS tinylogic part and a few other bits.
-sp
Reply by ●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 4:08:36 AM UTC-4, speff wrote:
> On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
> >
> > 3 cents in volume:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Klaus
>
> Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
>
> Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
How much difference in price between a crystal with two caps and an oscillator? I don't build such high volumes that it matters, but I'm curious. I pretty much gave up on bothering with crystals some time ago.
Rick C.
Reply by speff●October 18, 20182018-10-18
On Saturday, 13 October 2018 18:10:33 UTC+8, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> Amazingly, there is such a thing as a microcontroller that goes for less than a dirt cheap logic IC
>
> 3 cents in volume:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w
>
> Cheers
>
> Klaus
Nice. Their programmer and emulator won't break the bank either.
Not quite in that league, but I've been gearing up to play with the Nuvoton 8051-core N76E003AT20 which is around 25 cents US in a TSSOP-20. One weird thing about it is that there is no built-in oscillator for an external crystal- it's either internal RC oscillator or external oscillator module.
--sp
Reply by ●October 16, 20182018-10-16
David Brown wrote
>Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for
>cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them -
>or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)
That 12F has other virtues you do not so easily find in other micros:
; wms-0.1.asm
; Copyright (c) Jan Panteltje 2010-always.
;
; Temperature controller / thermostat replacement for Zanussi 913 washing machine.
; The original sensor has one make contact at 40 C that is in series with the mechanical timer clock, and one break contact at 90 C that is in series with the heating element.
; wms.asm for Microchip 12F629.
; From Microchhip program: TSTAT2~1.ASM. modified for RS232 ASCII out and PIC 12F629.
; see Microchip application notes 00720c.pdf (temp sensor using watch dog timer), and 00510e.pdf (for software serial out).
Fixed old washing machine with it...
Not hard to program at all.
Reply by David Brown●October 16, 20182018-10-16
On 16/10/18 01:34, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 15/10/18 23:44, David Brown wrote:
>> No, I mean whether your programmers will say "this is a nice core to
>> work with" (the M0), "this is a bit odd and inefficient for some things,
>> but not too bad" (the AVR core in the ATTiny), or "this is a hideous
>> monster and should have been strangled at birth some 30+ years ago" (the
>> 8051 core in the EFM8BB1).
>
> It's noteworthy that you didn't even invoke the demon PIC12... :)
>
Just be careful not to say its name three times in a row!
Klaus had given an ATTiny and an 8051 device as alternative choices for
cheap microcontrollers. Maybe the PIC12 is more expensive than them -
or maybe he /does/ have some sympathy for his programmers after all :-)