On 20/04/18 02:32, Jeff Liebermann wrote:> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:16:53 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> > wrote: > >> I will never make it in marketing, bugging people is my biggest pleasure. > > Ummm... methinks you have sales and marketing mixed up. The purpose > of marketing is to determine what needs to be designed, what features > need to be included or dropped, who are the likely buyers, pricing and > discount structure, how to sell, who's the competition, etc. Meanwhile > sales determines how to actually sell the product, which is where > bugging people has become an art form. The trick is to make the > customer feel that they are being informed, educated and entertained, > but not bugged, irritated, or pressured. All this while wearing a > permanent smile. > > Oversimplified, the purpose of marketing is to confuse the customer. > The purpose of sales is to offer the customer the product as the > solution to their confusion.A slightly less cynical oversimplification is that marketing represents the customer's thoughts/desires to the company, sales represents the company's thoughts/desires to the customer. Too often good salesmen are promoted to the marketing department, with predictable results.
Test Equipment.... The missing link
Started by ●April 19, 2018
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
On 4/20/2018 4:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:> > However, there are a few features that I wouldn't mind seeing added. > 1. An IR (infrared) emitter and detector for testing TV remote > controls.This is a standalone go/no-go RC tester that I made a few decades ago when repairing TVs made up a significant part of my work. https://www.dropbox.com/s/4266z0r318ua82y/RC%20tester.png?dl=0
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
On Thursday, April 19, 2018 at 5:57:31 PM UTC-4, Harry D wrote:>Do not let Mike or others talk you out of this project. But do read their advice. Mean while google Neil Heckt and AADE. Selling home brew test equipment can be done. Dan
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
On 04/19/18 15:12, Harry D wrote:> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and testing, I > find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, transistors and > many other semiconductor devices. I end up kluging parts to generate a > current source with enough voltage compliance to suit my needs. After > searching Amazon, eBay and most test equipment vendors, I find a lot of > units but none that fit my needs. So I decided to design, build an > manufacture my own unit, call the "Semi Analyzer". It will not be > available for a few more months at Amazon and eBay. This unit's use > would be obvious to most on this newsgroup. > My biggest problem is to get customer recognition. Amazon can have 20 > pages of electronic test equipment products, it is hard to percolate up > the pile and be recognized. A few reviews will go a long way. I am > thinking of giving out free samples to helpful members of this group, in > lieu of feedback to bush my product into everyday use. > As you can see, I am a newbie in sales, just a lab rat. Any suggestion > on selling my product? > > Cheers, Harry DellamanoCall it "HP 4145B"? ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 4:32:31 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:> On 04/19/18 15:12, Harry D wrote: > > Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and testing, I > > find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, transistors and > > many other semiconductor devices. I end up kluging parts to generate a > > current source with enough voltage compliance to suit my needs. After > > searching Amazon, eBay and most test equipment vendors, I find a lot of > > units but none that fit my needs. So I decided to design, build an > > manufacture my own unit, call the "Semi Analyzer". It will not be > > available for a few more months at Amazon and eBay. This unit's use > > would be obvious to most on this newsgroup. > > My biggest problem is to get customer recognition. Amazon can have 20 > > pages of electronic test equipment products, it is hard to percolate up > > the pile and be recognized. A few reviews will go a long way. I am > > thinking of giving out free samples to helpful members of this group, in > > lieu of feedback to bush my product into everyday use. > > As you can see, I am a newbie in sales, just a lab rat. Any suggestion > > on selling my product? > > > > Cheers, Harry Dellamano > > Call it "HP 4145B"? ;) >HD 4145B, given his name. GH> Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > http://electrooptical.net > http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 17:52:43 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote:>On 4/20/2018 4:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> >> However, there are a few features that I wouldn't mind seeing added. >> 1. An IR (infrared) emitter and detector for testing TV remote >> controls.>This is a standalone go/no-go RC tester that I made a few decades >ago when repairing TVs made up a significant part of my work. >https://www.dropbox.com/s/4266z0r318ua82y/RC%20tester.png?dl=0I use a digital camera to view the emitted near IR. Some of the MK-328 mutations have a built in IR tester: <https://www.ebay.com/itm/222506858682> Unforunately, it only decodes remotes that belch the Hitachi protocol. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●April 21, 20182018-04-21
"Phil Hobbs" wrote in message news:46mdnew9wu3L00fHnZ2dnUU7-LGdnZ2d@supernews.com... On 04/19/18 15:12, Harry D wrote:> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and testing, I > find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, transistors and many > other semiconductor devices. I end up kluging parts to generate a current > source with enough voltage compliance to suit my needs. After searching > Amazon, eBay and most test equipment vendors, I find a lot of units but > none that fit my needs. So I decided to design, build an manufacture my > own unit, call the "Semi Analyzer". It will not be available for a few > more months at Amazon and eBay. This unit's use would be obvious to most > on this newsgroup. > My biggest problem is to get customer recognition. Amazon can have 20 > pages of electronic test equipment products, it is hard to percolate up > the pile and be recognized. A few reviews will go a long way. I am > thinking of giving out free samples to helpful members of this group, in > lieu of feedback to bush my product into everyday use. > As you can see, I am a newbie in sales, just a lab rat. Any suggestion on > selling my product? > > Cheers, Harry DellamanoCall it "HP 4145B"? ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com nag, nag, nag...... Ok Philip, you are on the free sample list. Ciao, Harry D.
Reply by ●April 21, 20182018-04-21
wrote in message news:ed850a48-18ca-43c8-a82e-895e952d35ca@googlegroups.com... On Thursday, April 19, 2018 at 5:57:31 PM UTC-4, Harry D wrote:>Do not let Mike or others talk you out of this project. But do read their advice. Mean while google Neil Heckt and AADE. Selling home brew test equipment can be done. Dan Hey Dan, I too have one of his LC meters. Use it for lower range values. His meter was some of my inspiration. Ciao, harry D.
Reply by ●April 21, 20182018-04-21
On 2018/04/20 6:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:> On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 17:52:43 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> On 4/20/2018 4:45 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>> >>> However, there are a few features that I wouldn't mind seeing added. >>> 1. An IR (infrared) emitter and detector for testing TV remote >>> controls. > >> This is a standalone go/no-go RC tester that I made a few decades >> ago when repairing TVs made up a significant part of my work. >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4266z0r318ua82y/RC%20tester.png?dl=0 > > I use a digital camera to view the emitted near IR.Depends on the vintage of digital camera, earlier ones did not have an IR filter, but that is more common now to be coated on the lens. As an example most phones have IR filters AFAIK. An argument for never throwing out any potential test gear... John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Reply by ●April 21, 20182018-04-21
"mike" wrote in message news:pbbvbp$ru$1@dont-email.me... There's a lot of missing information about price and who you expect to buy it. Based on what you (OP) have said, this is a VERY BAD IDEA on many levels. Just to put you in the frame of mind... Would you have liked to have been the first vendor for the Pet Rock (and had the sense to get out at the peak)? How would you have liked to have been the 240th vendor of the Pet Rock five years later with a marketing strategy based on more compelling writing on the included paper? You have two choices. 1) Waste time having fun, the definition of hobby. 2) Create/market/sell a product, the opposite of a hobby. If it's the first, go forth and have fun. If it's the second, you gots some work to do. And almost none of it has to do with engineering the hardware. You absolutely, positively, MUST write a business plan. Scribble it on the back of an envelope, but do it. My suggestion is that you start near the end and work backwards toward the design. If you do that, you'll waste less time and money before scrapping the project. I'd start with the discount cash flow analysis. Plot out the timeline for the project and the rate of cash burn you'll be spending in each phase. Assume you'll be borrowing all that money and paying interest. Factor in the cost of money. At this point, your mouse cursor is racing toward that "reply" icon to TELL ME that you're not borrowing any money. You'd be wrong. Opportunity cost IS borrowed money that you could have left in the bank earning interest or working on a different product. Take a chill pill and read on... The graph will be headed down until revenue exceeds the costs of maintaining the product...fixes, improvements, sales, marketing, distribution, taxes, fees, insurance, the list is endless. Of course, you've considered the cost of product liability insurance, business fees/taxes/licenses, EMC compliance, safety certifications. If you don't it's a hobby and may become a VERY EXPENSIVE hobby. Nothing wrong with a hobby, just don't confuse the two. The graph will eventually head up until it reaches zero. That's the time to break even. The PROFIT accumulates and earns interest until product end of life, or somebody takes your market away. In the first case, you can sell off inventory. In the second case, you get to scrap it. If at the end of the run, the graph is above zero, you done good. If it's below zero, you wasted a bunch of your life. The time value of money shows up as your graph deviating, in the undesired direction, from straight line segments. You'll also note that delays near the end are FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than they would have been for the same delay inserted at the beginning. Delays near the end can, and often do, convert profitable ventures into losses. You've known that since the day your mother taught you that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I posit that upper management never had mothers...but I digress. Do the damn business plan. Next thing to do is make a second discount cash flow graph. Assume you got a job at minimum wage, maybe flipping burgers. Spend as much time at that job as you'd spend on the project. Put the money in the bank and earn interest. Lay the two DCF graphs over one another. If the PROJECT line EVER crosses the burger flipping line, you MIGHT have a profitable project. If the project line at end of life exceeds the burger flipping line, you've got a winner...unless you don't get everything perfect. Notice that if you delay the project or don't meet sales targets, the DCF can go horribly wrong very quickly, while the burger flipper just keep raking in that minimum wage. If you have marketable skills that exceed minimum wage, by all means, use that higher rate in the analysis. It will be much harder to exceed the burger line. If your optimistic estimates of schedule, volume and price don't pencil out, you should abort the project. Things rarely go better than plan. You can guess what happens if you don't even have a plan. Did I mention, do the damn business plan. In the real world, you'd want the project to EXCEED the burger flipping line by a large margin. Shit happens. Full disclosure... I've had several "SUPER-DUPER" ideas over the years. None, zero, not any had a projected outcome that exceeded burger flipping. There was no way I could have mustered the resources to take advantage of the opportunity in a manner that suggested a profitable outcome. If I'd been a Chinese manufacturer with an established sales channel and experience going from 0 to customer in weeks, the story may have been different. Those guys, by the way, will be the ones who take your market away. Yes, I'm conservative. I'd rather live the quiet hobby life instead of the stomach ulcer, heart failure life. I try not to buck the trend for projects that don't pencil out. But I digress... Back to the topic... You have to decide what you're selling. What do you offer that people will be willing to pay for. Often, what people will pay for is not what you think of as your primary deliverable. There's an example at the end of this. It's important to separate emotion from reality. Who is gonna buy it. As an ebay hobbyist: I know that there are many clones. I know that specs/features get exaggerated beyond capabilities. I know that you can never trust anything. I bought the cheapest available. As an engineer for whom time is money, I'd buy from a reputable vendor. I'd buy a product with proper standards compliance/certifications. I'd expect EVERY spec to be met. I'd expect the test algorithms to be documented sufficiently for me to trust what I was measuring. What do they expect from it? The unit I bought could test capacitors for ESR. Was the number accurate to 1%? I doubt it. Could I use it to identify failing caps? Youbetcha. I plugged a bunch of different components on it and was amazed at how well it detected good devices. I was far less impressed with the results on defective devices. I expected to be able to measure the ESR of a battery. No dice, unidentified component. OK, put a big cap in series and measure the sum. No dice. OK, match two cells, hook 'em up reversed so the sum voltage was zero. No dice. The designer of the tester had a vision of what the device should do that differs from mine. Nothing in the spec, or lack thereof, prepared me for that. I think I paid about $10 for the thing and am well pleased with it. If I had a production line shutdown depending on that diagnostic, I'd have been pissed. For a device this general, you can't please everybody. And the tighter specifications don't matter much. Any process that really depends on that accuracy will also require traceability. Is more really better? Sure, if you're matching 20V zeners, you could make a case. But how many people do that? What if, instead, you were matching Vbe on low noise microwave transistors, do you really want those three leads thrashing all over the place breaking down the device trying to determine what it is? Yes, nobody in their right mind would use this to do that, but not everybody is in their right mind. I'm sure you can come up with other cases where 24V is not a good thing. After watching the waveforms while it analyzed the component, I'm not sure that I like what it's doing to the parts. In case you missed it... Unless there's a lot going on that you haven't mentioned, I predict that this is a BAD IDEA. Yes, you can design/develop/manufacture/market/sell a product at a profit. I suggest, based on available disclosure, that this is not one of those cases. I have a story to tell. Hopefully, it's more helpful than a long, contentious thread about politics. Long ago in a galaxy far away, I attended a "club" of entrepreneurs who met to exchange ideas and provide support to one another. Attorneys were present to help you, for a fee, draft your patent applications and perform other necessary legal services. I listened to a bunch of presentations; most of them horror stories. The people who made money were the lawyers and the people collecting membership fees. The entrepreneurs, not so much. They all thought their idea was gonna make them rich. To a man-1, they were blinded by their brilliance and didn't have a clue about what it took to make a buck. Sure, some of the products were innovative. What was lacking was the business plan. The outlier understood that you can separate the user of the item from the one paying for it. He designed a plastic extrusion, cut it into 1" sections and sold it to advertising distributors. Businesses contracted with the distributors to have their advertisement printed on it and gave it to customers. Customers used it to clip a pencil to the sun visor of their car. It was free, so customers took a lot of them. It was profitable for the advertising distributor. It was cheap advertising for the businesses. The entrepreneur took orders for blank plastic from the few distributors and forwarded orders to the plant in China making the plastic. As I recall, he made about 5-cents each, but the volume was high and sales cost was near zero. There was no contact with actual user. Nobody cared about the quality of the plastic. There were no specifications. Life is sweet when the end user doesn't pay the cost and didn't even know he needed one. How well the product held pencils was not an issue. A competitor offering a product that held pencils "better" at the same price wouldn't get anywhere. The market is so huge that clones wouldn't impact sales. The entrepreneur was not selling pencil holders. He was selling efficient advertising. And he was not involved in either manufacture of the plastic or the sale of advertising. One more story, since I'm on a roll... One guy had a contract with local chain stores to supply lawn care products. I forget the details. Iron is an important factor in green lawns. The guy spread iron filings on his lawn and it got green. Since the iron didn't disperse, his lawn was still green the next year. OK now, we've got ourselves a product. He was so sure of his product that he offered a 5 year money back guarantee. He built a machine to bag iron filings and set up to produce. OOPS, you can't just buy iron filings. He had to buy a train car full of it and rent a space to store it. No problem, this is gonna make him rich. The stuff flew off the shelves. The first year was great. Two years later, people started wanting their money back. Vendors took it off the shelves. He had to pay back all the purchasers who demanded it. He still had almost a full train car load of iron filings that he couldn't get rid of. He had let his optimism override rigorous validation of his claims and it came back to bite him. I've got many more horror stories about how very smart people let their enthusiasm override logic. Mike, You must be long of tooth to have stored all that negative BS. Reminds me of a lunch I had with Andy Grove at an Intel seminar. Andy, what is the best way to start a new company? Answer, "well there are two ways. One, get some PhDs with fresh Ideas and sell them to the VCs. Then a tall office building, carpets and pretty girls. Bankruptcy will follow shortly. Second, design a product that will fill a market need. Make a few in your garage. If there is interest, expand to a two car garage. Keep pushing and you have a 20% change of surviving." This is my paraphrase, AG said it better. Mike, stay away from sharp objects. Cheers, Harry D.
