On Thursday, April 19, 2018 at 5:41:46 PM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:> George Herold wrote: > > > > Maybe send one to Dave Jones of the eevblog.. he gets stuff and might > > review it. (It might be good to contact him first.) Are there other > > electronics/techie blogs? > > Lots, but the best is "The Signal Path", for example: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9u-QTDAeaM > > Also good is Jack Ganssle: > > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC067MO4ZVsbA8QDJG0qCTJQOK, TBH I don't watch/listen to many electronics videos, these days. I only can listen when doing some mundane task, like testing. And then there's so much good stuff out there to listen too. I haven't tried to add it up, but I have hundreds of hours of Dan Carlin still to go. to the OP, from someone selling to a small market. Advertising is hard/ expensive. You first need to figure out who your market is. Then go show 'em what you got, sell some, word of mouth.. show some more, rinse and repeat. Oh and of course customer service... maybe our best 'advertising' A bipolar current source is nice. (why only 1 mA? Some opamp will do 20mA easy.) My other fav test tool is an opamp TIA, with a bunch of ranges.. (does your gizmo have a bunch of ranges?) Drive your DUT with a bench sig. gen. (tri. wave) and monitor current. George H.
Test Equipment.... The missing link
Started by ●April 19, 2018
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
Harry D wrote:> "Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:pbb3pj$ppv$1@dont-email.me... > > Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:12:30 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and >>> testing, I find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, >>> transistors and many other semiconductor devices. (...) >> >> Perhaps you should do some market research before taking the plunge. >> There are quite a few products being sold on eBay based on the MK-328 >> or "AVR Transistor Tester" project: >> <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mk328> >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=mk+328> >> Manual: >> <https://elecfreaks.com/estore/download/EF06128-LCR-1602tester.pdf> >> I believe that this is the original project site: >> <https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_Transistortester> >> It will test all the devices that you mention. > > Video of the $7 version from ebay: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Br3L1B80ow > > Hard to compete with that. A curve tracer function would be a nice > addition though. > > It made me wonder, doesn't anyone make a ZIF socket with fewer than 14 > pins? > > Hi Tom, > Agreed, but I would not have one of those testers in my lab. As far > as LCR, there are so many testers that can do a better job. All > except ESR to 1.00 m Ohm. That may be my next unit. > When a MOSFET is blown, I run for my Semi-Analyzer and measure four > FET parameters to 1 %. I have never encountered a bad FET passing > this test. Another good use is deciding which diode dropped on the > floor. A quick test comparing their forward voltage (to 1.0 m volt) > will easily cull the devices. > Thanks for your interest, Harry DYou could make your own promotional video on youtube. That way you don't have to worry about a reviewer reverse engineering it and revealing too much.
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
"Clifford Heath" wrote in message news:kC9CC.7719$yc1.6133@fx40.iad... On 20/04/18 05:12, Harry D wrote:> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and testing, I > find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, transistors and many > other semiconductor devices. I end up kluging parts to generate a current > source with enough voltage compliance to suit my needs. After searching > Amazon, eBay and most test equipment vendors, I find a lot of units but > none that fit my needs. So I decided to design, build an manufacture my > own unit, call the "Semi Analyzer". It will not be available for a few > more months at Amazon and eBay. This unit's use would be obvious to most > on this newsgroup. > My biggest problem is to get customer recognition. Amazon can have 20 > pages of electronic test equipment products, it is hard to percolate up > the pile and be recognized. A few reviews will go a long way. I am > thinking of giving out free samples to helpful members of this group, in > lieu of feedback to bush my product into everyday use. > As you can see, I am a newbie in sales, just a lab rat. Any suggestion on > selling my product? > > Cheers, Harry DellamanoI love my Atlas DCA55 for that kind of thing. Have you used one? Sure it could always have more features (like an SMD probe), but it does a nice job of what it does. Clifford Heath. The DCA55 is a nice looking unit and I am trying to fill niches it cannot handle, such as 24V compliance. It states measuring MOSFET Vgs, which can be >4.0 Volts. I bet that unit cannot handle that high of a voltage. Thanks for your input. Harry D.
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:56:51 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:>Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:12:30 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and >>> testing, I find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, >>> transistors and many other semiconductor devices. (...) >> >> Perhaps you should do some market research before taking the plunge. >> There are quite a few products being sold on eBay based on the MK-328 >> or "AVR Transistor Tester" project: >> <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mk328> >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=mk+328> >> Manual: >> <https://elecfreaks.com/estore/download/EF06128-LCR-1602tester.pdf> >> I believe that this is the original project site: >> <https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_Transistortester> >> It will test all the devices that you mention.>Video of the $7 version from ebay: >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Br3L1B80owThere are at least 2 hardware versions of the MK-328 and many firmware versions and mutations. Of course, I initially bought the oldest hardware and bugware. For example, this vendor has 9 different boards: <https://www.ebay.com/itm/222455562659> but doesn't have anything with a color display and IR receiver: <https://www.ebay.com/itm/222506858682>>Hard to compete with that. A curve tracer function would be a nice >addition though.That would require a pocket oscilloscope. One can probably build something around a Raspberry Pi 3 and the associated touch screen LCD display. <http://projects-raspberry.com/project-curve-tracer-progress-update/> <https://twitter.com/dvgadre/status/798867438443954177> or an Arduino board: <https://blog.adafruit.com/2011/10/20/arduino-bicmos-curve-tracer/> Yet another project.>It made me wonder, doesn't anyone make a ZIF socket with fewer than 14 >pins?A picture is worth 1000 text searches: <https://www.google.com/search?q=8+pin+zif+socket&tbm=isch> Nope, nothing found in 8 pin. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D3D802.36504200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message = news:rj6iddp0vbf447a8simm43uaduro4bt8k5@4ax.com...=20 On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:57:33 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> wrote:>Hi Jeff, thanks for your help. You are a candidate for a free unit.Oh-oh. No good deed goes unpunished. For reasons known only to the perpetrators, I sometimes get unsolicited prototypes and software in the mail. I can't resist the temptation to play with the stuff. Of course, I find things that don't quite work, bugs, things I think can be improved, and add my contribution to feature bloat. Despite my protests, I usually get involved in the project and burn huge amounts of time for minimal gain. Ok, I'm a masochist. So, do I thank you for your gracious offer? Do I warn you that getting me involved in your project is much like inviting your mother in law to move in? Do I run away screaming that I never want to see another prototype again? Indecision, the key to flexibility. You just moved up from candidate to great candidate.=20 Tell me where you hang out, I want to learn more.>My tester sources +/- 1.00 m Amp +/-1%. with a voltage compliance of 24 =Vdc.=20 There's gray area between a tester and a measuring instrument. Testers usually are limited to simply providing a good/bad indication if the device is functional and makes no attempt to produce any numbers. A measuring instrument produces numbers that can be used to characterize performance. I suggest you decide which type of product you are selling and to what audience.>It will test zener diodes and LED strings to 24 V. MOSFETs can be =tested for=20>+/-Vgs gate leakage, parasitic diode forward drop and Ron to 10m R and =1%=20>accuracy. Transistor Vbe matching to 0.10 m V. Beta measurement with=20 >external DVM. Given the large 24 volt compliance, it has many lab uses, =such=20>as ESD protection diodes in IC's.You just answered my previous question. For a lab, you want a measuring instrument. Great point, worth many points. I have a measuring unit. I have several MK-328 style component testers. It's quite adequate for my use, which is testing random components found in my junk pile, salvaged from old PCB's, and found a flea markets and garage sales. For example, I carry one in my pocket when I go to situations where I'll need to do a quick good/bad test. Ball park numbers are fine for such a tester. However, there are a few features that I wouldn't mind seeing added. 1. An IR (infrared) emitter and detector for testing TV remote controls. 2. A TDR (time domain reflectometer). If it can display something useful on the OLED display, even better. 3. A better ESR meter that will measure resistances below 1 ohm. I'm not trying to get better electrolytic capacitor results, but rather measure things that tend to have resistances below 1 ohm, such as current shunts, wire cable, battery ESR, carbon brushes, reed relay contact resistance, etc. =20 I totally agree on the ESR meter but there are micro Ohm meters for = other uses. On the marketing front, most engineers think that they can design a product and immediately sell it on eBay. That doesn't work very well because you cannot easily determine your target audience, have no way to protect your product from clone makers, are likely to infringe on someone elses patent, probably haven't given much thought to pricing, don't have a business plan, and probably have limited financing. I can't offer a checklist of things to do to market your product. Maybe start with some light reading. This looks like a good start: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297899 I will never make it in marketing, bugging people is my biggest = pleasure.>Thanks again, you are a huge help to this community. HarryD.=20Y'er welcome and good luck. (Sorry if this is a bit incoherent. I got interrupted about 5 times while writing it). Jeff, you are never incoherent! --=20 Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D3D802.36504200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=3Dltr> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message=20 news:rj6iddp0vbf447a8simm43uaduro4bt8k5@4ax.com... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:57:33 -0700, "Harry D"=20 <harryd@tdsystems.org></DIV> <DIV>wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>Hi Jeff, thanks for your help. You are a candidate for a free=20 unit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh-oh. No good deed goes unpunished. For reasons known = only to=20 the</DIV> <DIV>perpetrators, I sometimes get unsolicited prototypes and software = in</DIV> <DIV>the mail. I can't resist the temptation to play with the = stuff. =20 Of</DIV> <DIV>course, I find things that don't quite work, bugs, things I think = can</DIV> <DIV>be improved, and add my contribution to feature bloat. = Despite=20 my</DIV> <DIV>protests, I usually get involved in the project and burn huge = amounts</DIV> <DIV>of time for minimal gain. Ok, I'm a masochist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, do I thank you for your gracious offer? Do I warn you = that</DIV> <DIV>getting me involved in your project is much like inviting your = mother</DIV> <DIV>in law to move in? Do I run away screaming that I never want = to=20 see</DIV> <DIV>another prototype again? Indecision, the key to = flexibility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>You just moved up from candidate to great=20 candidate</STRONG>.<STRONG> </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Tell me where you hang out, I want to learn = more.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>My tester sources +/- 1.00 m Amp +/-1%. with a voltage = compliance of 24=20 Vdc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's gray area between a tester and a measuring instrument.=20 Testers</DIV> <DIV>usually are limited to simply providing a good/bad indication if = the</DIV> <DIV>device is functional and makes no attempt to produce any = numbers. =20 A</DIV> <DIV>measuring instrument produces numbers that can be used to=20 characterize</DIV> <DIV>performance. I suggest you decide which type of product you = are</DIV> <DIV>selling and to what audience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>It will test zener diodes and LED strings to 24 V. MOSFETs can = be=20 tested for </DIV> <DIV>>+/-Vgs gate leakage, parasitic diode forward drop and Ron to = 10m R and=20 1% </DIV> <DIV>>accuracy. Transistor Vbe matching to 0.10 m V. Beta measurement = with=20 </DIV> <DIV>>external DVM. Given the large 24 volt compliance, it has many = lab uses,=20 such </DIV> <DIV>>as ESD protection diodes in IC's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You just answered my previous question. For a lab, you want = a</DIV> <DIV>measuring instrument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <STRONG>Great point, worth many points. I have a measuring=20 unit</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have several MK-328 style component testers. It's quite=20 adequate</DIV> <DIV>for my use, which is testing random components found in my junk = pile,</DIV> <DIV>salvaged from old PCB's, and found a flea markets and garage = sales.</DIV> <DIV>For example, I carry one in my pocket when I go to situations = where</DIV> <DIV>I'll need to do a quick good/bad test. Ball park = numbers are=20 fine</DIV> <DIV>for such a tester.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, there are a few features that I wouldn't mind seeing = added.</DIV> <DIV>1. An IR (infrared) emitter and detector for testing TV = remote</DIV> <DIV>controls.</DIV> <DIV>2. A TDR (time domain reflectometer). If it can display = something</DIV> <DIV>useful on the OLED display, even better.</DIV> <DIV>3. A better ESR meter that will measure resistances below 1=20 ohm. I'm</DIV> <DIV>not trying to get better electrolytic capacitor results, but = rather</DIV> <DIV>measure things that tend to have resistances below 1 ohm, such = as</DIV> <DIV>current shunts, wire cable, battery ESR, carbon brushes, reed = relay</DIV> <DIV>contact resistance, etc. </DIV> <DIV> <STRONG>I totally agree on the ESR meter but there are micro = Ohm=20 meters for other uses.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>On the marketing front, most engineers think that they can design = a</DIV> <DIV>product and immediately sell it on eBay. That doesn't work = very=20 well</DIV> <DIV>because you cannot easily determine your target audience, have no = way</DIV> <DIV>to protect your product from clone makers, are likely to infringe = on</DIV> <DIV>someone elses patent, probably haven't given much thought to = pricing,</DIV> <DIV>don't have a business plan, and probably have limited = financing. =20 I</DIV> <DIV>can't offer a checklist of things to do to market your = product. =20 Maybe</DIV> <DIV>start with some light reading. This looks like a good = start:</DIV> <DIV><A=20 href=3D"https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297899">https://www.entrepre= neur.com/article/297899</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>I will never make it in marketing, bugging people is my = biggest=20 pleasure</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>Thanks again, you are a huge help to this community. = HarryD.=20 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Y'er welcome and good luck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Sorry if this is a bit incoherent. I got interrupted about 5 = times</DIV> <DIV>while writing it).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Jeff, you are never incoherent!</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>-- </DIV> <DIV>Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com</DIV> <DIV>150 Felker St #D = http://www.LearnByDestroying.com</DIV> <DIV>Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com</DIV> <DIV>Skype: JeffLiebermann = AE6KS =20 831-336-2558</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D3D802.36504200--
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01D3D804.A19F0B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:pbbaqd$1d2$1@dont-email.me...=20 Harry D wrote:> "Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message news:pbb3pj$ppv$1@dont-email.me... > > Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:12:30 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and >>> testing, I find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, >>> transistors and many other semiconductor devices. (...) >> >> Perhaps you should do some market research before taking the plunge. >> There are quite a few products being sold on eBay based on the MK-328 >> or "AVR Transistor Tester" project: >> <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=3Dmk328> >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dmk+328> >> Manual: >> <https://elecfreaks.com/estore/download/EF06128-LCR-1602tester.pdf> >> I believe that this is the original project site: >> <https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_Transistortester> >> It will test all the devices that you mention. > > Video of the $7 version from ebay: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D7Br3L1B80ow > > Hard to compete with that. A curve tracer function would be a nice > addition though. > > It made me wonder, doesn't anyone make a ZIF socket with fewer than 14 > pins? > > Hi Tom, > Agreed, but I would not have one of those testers in my lab. As far > as LCR, there are so many testers that can do a better job. All > except ESR to 1.00 m Ohm. That may be my next unit. > When a MOSFET is blown, I run for my Semi-Analyzer and measure four > FET parameters to 1 %. I have never encountered a bad FET passing > this test. Another good use is deciding which diode dropped on the > floor. A quick test comparing their forward voltage (to 1.0 m volt) > will easily cull the devices. > Thanks for your interest, Harry DYou could make your own promotional video on youtube. That way you=20 don't have to worry about a reviewer reverse engineering it and=20 revealing too much. Tom, my saving grace my be this market nitch is too small for anyone = else trying to share it. Patents and copyrights are all BS.. Most in this group could design = this from a blank piece of paper. My design would probably be in the top 10 5%. Thanks for your consideration. Harry D ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01D3D804.A19F0B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=3Dltr> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message = news:pbbaqd$1d2$1@dont-email.me...=20 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harry D wrote:</DIV> <DIV>> "Tom Del Rosso" wrote in message=20 news:pbb3pj$ppv$1@dont-email.me...</DIV> <DIV>></DIV> <DIV>> Jeff Liebermann wrote:</DIV> <DIV>>> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:12:30 -0700, "Harry D"=20 <harryd@tdsystems.org></DIV> <DIV>>> wrote:</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>>> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, = designing=20 and</DIV> <DIV>>>> testing, I find myself trying to test zener diodes, = FETs,=20 LEDs,</DIV> <DIV>>>> transistors and many other semiconductor devices. = (...)</DIV> <DIV>>></DIV> <DIV>>> Perhaps you should do some market research before taking = the=20 plunge.</DIV> <DIV>>> There are quite a few products being sold on eBay based on = the=20 MK-328</DIV> <DIV>>> or "AVR Transistor Tester" project:</DIV> <DIV>>> <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=3Dmk328></DIV> <DIV>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dmk+328></DIV> <DIV>>> Manual:</DIV> <DIV>>>=20 <https://elecfreaks.com/estore/download/EF06128-LCR-1602tester.pdf>= </DIV> <DIV>>> I believe that this is the original project site:</DIV> <DIV>>>=20 <https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_Transistortester></DI= V> <DIV>>> It will test all the devices that you mention.</DIV> <DIV>></DIV> <DIV>> Video of the $7 version from ebay:</DIV> <DIV>></DIV> <DIV>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D7Br3L1B80ow</DIV> <DIV>></DIV> <DIV>> Hard to compete with that. A curve tracer function would = be a=20 nice</DIV> <DIV>> addition though.</DIV> <DIV>></DIV> <DIV>> It made me wonder, doesn't anyone make a ZIF socket with fewer = than=20 14</DIV> <DIV>> pins?</DIV> <DIV>></DIV> <DIV>> Hi Tom,</DIV> <DIV>> Agreed, but I would not have one of those testers in my lab. = As=20 far</DIV> <DIV>> as LCR, there are so many testers that can do a better job. = All</DIV> <DIV>> except ESR to 1.00 m Ohm. That may be my next unit.</DIV> <DIV>> When a MOSFET is blown, I run for my Semi-Analyzer and measure = four</DIV> <DIV>> FET parameters to 1 %. I have never encountered a bad FET=20 passing</DIV> <DIV>> this test. Another good use is deciding which diode = dropped on=20 the</DIV> <DIV>> floor. A quick test comparing their forward voltage (to 1.0 m=20 volt)</DIV> <DIV>> will easily cull the devices.</DIV> <DIV>> Thanks for your interest, Harry D</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could make your own promotional video on youtube. That = way you=20 </DIV> <DIV>don't have to worry about a reviewer reverse engineering it and = </DIV> <DIV>revealing too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tom, my saving grace my be this market nitch is too small for = anyone else=20 trying to share it.</DIV> <DIV>Patents and copyrights are all BS.. Most in this group could = design=20 this from a blank piece of paper.</DIV> <DIV>My design would probably be in the top <STRIKE>10</STRIKE> = 5%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your consideration. Harry D</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01D3D804.A19F0B20--
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
On 20/04/18 09:59, Harry D wrote:> > > "Clifford Heath" wrote in message news:kC9CC.7719$yc1.6133@fx40.iad... > > On 20/04/18 05:12, Harry D wrote: >> Having spent over 50 years in electronic labs, designing and testing, >> I find myself trying to test zener diodes, FETs, LEDs, transistors and >> many other semiconductor devices. I end up kluging parts to generate a >> current source with enough voltage compliance to suit my needs. After >> searching Amazon, eBay and most test equipment vendors, I find a lot >> of units but none that fit my needs. So I decided to design, build an >> manufacture my own unit, call the "Semi Analyzer". It will not be >> available for a few more months at Amazon and eBay. This unit's use >> would be obvious to most on this newsgroup. >> My biggest problem is to get customer recognition. Amazon can have 20 >> pages of electronic test equipment products, it is hard to percolate >> up the pile and be recognized. A few reviews will go a long way. I am >> thinking of giving out free samples to helpful members of this group, >> in lieu of feedback to bush my product into everyday use. >> As you can see, I am a newbie in sales, just a lab rat. Any suggestion >> on selling my product? >> >> Cheers, Harry Dellamano > > I love my Atlas DCA55 for that kind of thing. > Have you used one? Sure it could always have > more features (like an SMD probe), but it > does a nice job of what it does. > > Clifford Heath. > > The DCA55 is a nice looking unit and I am trying to fill niches it > cannot handle, such as 24V compliance. It states measuring MOSFET Vgs, > which can be >4.0 Volts. I bet that unit cannot handle that high of a > voltage.It has a small 12v battery inside, so no, compliance is limited to around 9V total, I think. I bought it after designing something similar, which I mentioned here and folk directed me to the Atlas. If you search back you'll find I started discussions about fast bi-polar current sources. I wanted +-24V compliance. I recall JT and Win were helpful. "Fast" because I wanted to characterize capacitors and inductors up to say 500KHz. Anyhow, the DCA55 filled enough of this niche that I decided not to complete my project. Clifford Heath.
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:16:53 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> wrote:>I will never make it in marketing, bugging people is my biggest pleasure.Ummm... methinks you have sales and marketing mixed up. The purpose of marketing is to determine what needs to be designed, what features need to be included or dropped, who are the likely buyers, pricing and discount structure, how to sell, who's the competition, etc. Meanwhile sales determines how to actually sell the product, which is where bugging people has become an art form. The trick is to make the customer feel that they are being informed, educated and entertained, but not bugged, irritated, or pressured. All this while wearing a permanent smile. Oversimplified, the purpose of marketing is to confuse the customer. The purpose of sales is to offer the customer the product as the solution to their confusion. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●April 19, 20182018-04-19
On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:59:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:>>Hard to compete with that. A curve tracer function would be a nice >>addition though.The Atlas DCA Pro (DCA75) has a built in curve tracer feature: <https://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/dca75-dca-pro.html> It needs a PC to display the curves. I haven't played with the pro and do not have any experience with the curve tracer feature. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Reply by ●April 20, 20182018-04-20
On 4/19/2018 4:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:57:33 -0700, "Harry D" <harryd@tdsystems.org> > wrote: > >> Hi Jeff, thanks for your help. You are a candidate for a free unit. > > Oh-oh. No good deed goes unpunished. For reasons known only to the > perpetrators, I sometimes get unsolicited prototypes and software in > the mail. I can't resist the temptation to play with the stuff. Of > course, I find things that don't quite work, bugs, things I think can > be improved, and add my contribution to feature bloat. Despite my > protests, I usually get involved in the project and burn huge amounts > of time for minimal gain. Ok, I'm a masochist. > > So, do I thank you for your gracious offer? Do I warn you that > getting me involved in your project is much like inviting your mother > in law to move in? Do I run away screaming that I never want to see > another prototype again? Indecision, the key to flexibility. > >> My tester sources +/- 1.00 m Amp +/-1%. with a voltage compliance of 24 Vdc. > > There's gray area between a tester and a measuring instrument. Testers > usually are limited to simply providing a good/bad indication if the > device is functional and makes no attempt to produce any numbers. A > measuring instrument produces numbers that can be used to characterize > performance. I suggest you decide which type of product you are > selling and to what audience. > >> It will test zener diodes and LED strings to 24 V. MOSFETs can be tested for >> +/-Vgs gate leakage, parasitic diode forward drop and Ron to 10m R and 1% >> accuracy. Transistor Vbe matching to 0.10 m V. Beta measurement with >> external DVM. Given the large 24 volt compliance, it has many lab uses, such >> as ESD protection diodes in IC's. > > You just answered my previous question. For a lab, you want a > measuring instrument. > > I have several MK-328 style component testers. It's quite adequate > for my use, which is testing random components found in my junk pile, > salvaged from old PCB's, and found a flea markets and garage sales. > For example, I carry one in my pocket when I go to situations where > I'll need to do a quick good/bad test. Ball park numbers are fine > for such a tester. > > However, there are a few features that I wouldn't mind seeing added. > 1. An IR (infrared) emitter and detector for testing TV remote > controls. > 2. A TDR (time domain reflectometer). If it can display something > useful on the OLED display, even better. > 3. A better ESR meter that will measure resistances below 1 ohm. I'm > not trying to get better electrolytic capacitor results, but rather > measure things that tend to have resistances below 1 ohm, such as > current shunts, wire cable, battery ESR, carbon brushes, reed relay > contact resistance, etc. > > On the marketing front, most engineers think that they can design a > product and immediately sell it on eBay. That doesn't work very well > because you cannot easily determine your target audience, have no way > to protect your product from clone makers, are likely to infringe on > someone elses patent, probably haven't given much thought to pricing, > don't have a business plan, and probably have limited financing. I > can't offer a checklist of things to do to market your product. Maybe > start with some light reading. This looks like a good start: > <https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297899> > >> Thanks again, you are a huge help to this community. HarryD. > > Y'er welcome and good luck. > > (Sorry if this is a bit incoherent. I got interrupted about 5 times > while writing it). >+1 There's a lot of missing information about price and who you expect to buy it. Based on what you (OP) have said, this is a VERY BAD IDEA on many levels. Just to put you in the frame of mind... Would you have liked to have been the first vendor for the Pet Rock (and had the sense to get out at the peak)? How would you have liked to have been the 240th vendor of the Pet Rock five years later with a marketing strategy based on more compelling writing on the included paper? You have two choices. 1) Waste time having fun, the definition of hobby. 2) Create/market/sell a product, the opposite of a hobby. If it's the first, go forth and have fun. If it's the second, you gots some work to do. And almost none of it has to do with engineering the hardware. You absolutely, positively, MUST write a business plan. Scribble it on the back of an envelope, but do it. My suggestion is that you start near the end and work backwards toward the design. If you do that, you'll waste less time and money before scrapping the project. I'd start with the discount cash flow analysis. Plot out the timeline for the project and the rate of cash burn you'll be spending in each phase. Assume you'll be borrowing all that money and paying interest. Factor in the cost of money. At this point, your mouse cursor is racing toward that "reply" icon to TELL ME that you're not borrowing any money. You'd be wrong. Opportunity cost IS borrowed money that you could have left in the bank earning interest or working on a different product. Take a chill pill and read on... The graph will be headed down until revenue exceeds the costs of maintaining the product...fixes, improvements, sales, marketing, distribution, taxes, fees, insurance, the list is endless. Of course, you've considered the cost of product liability insurance, business fees/taxes/licenses, EMC compliance, safety certifications. If you don't it's a hobby and may become a VERY EXPENSIVE hobby. Nothing wrong with a hobby, just don't confuse the two. The graph will eventually head up until it reaches zero. That's the time to break even. The PROFIT accumulates and earns interest until product end of life, or somebody takes your market away. In the first case, you can sell off inventory. In the second case, you get to scrap it. If at the end of the run, the graph is above zero, you done good. If it's below zero, you wasted a bunch of your life. The time value of money shows up as your graph deviating, in the undesired direction, from straight line segments. You'll also note that delays near the end are FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than they would have been for the same delay inserted at the beginning. Delays near the end can, and often do, convert profitable ventures into losses. You've known that since the day your mother taught you that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I posit that upper management never had mothers...but I digress. Do the damn business plan. Next thing to do is make a second discount cash flow graph. Assume you got a job at minimum wage, maybe flipping burgers. Spend as much time at that job as you'd spend on the project. Put the money in the bank and earn interest. Lay the two DCF graphs over one another. If the PROJECT line EVER crosses the burger flipping line, you MIGHT have a profitable project. If the project line at end of life exceeds the burger flipping line, you've got a winner...unless you don't get everything perfect. Notice that if you delay the project or don't meet sales targets, the DCF can go horribly wrong very quickly, while the burger flipper just keep raking in that minimum wage. If you have marketable skills that exceed minimum wage, by all means, use that higher rate in the analysis. It will be much harder to exceed the burger line. If your optimistic estimates of schedule, volume and price don't pencil out, you should abort the project. Things rarely go better than plan. You can guess what happens if you don't even have a plan. Did I mention, do the damn business plan. In the real world, you'd want the project to EXCEED the burger flipping line by a large margin. Shit happens. Full disclosure... I've had several "SUPER-DUPER" ideas over the years. None, zero, not any had a projected outcome that exceeded burger flipping. There was no way I could have mustered the resources to take advantage of the opportunity in a manner that suggested a profitable outcome. If I'd been a Chinese manufacturer with an established sales channel and experience going from 0 to customer in weeks, the story may have been different. Those guys, by the way, will be the ones who take your market away. Yes, I'm conservative. I'd rather live the quiet hobby life instead of the stomach ulcer, heart failure life. I try not to buck the trend for projects that don't pencil out. But I digress... Back to the topic... You have to decide what you're selling. What do you offer that people will be willing to pay for. Often, what people will pay for is not what you think of as your primary deliverable. There's an example at the end of this. It's important to separate emotion from reality. Who is gonna buy it. As an ebay hobbyist: I know that there are many clones. I know that specs/features get exaggerated beyond capabilities. I know that you can never trust anything. I bought the cheapest available. As an engineer for whom time is money, I'd buy from a reputable vendor. I'd buy a product with proper standards compliance/certifications. I'd expect EVERY spec to be met. I'd expect the test algorithms to be documented sufficiently for me to trust what I was measuring. What do they expect from it? The unit I bought could test capacitors for ESR. Was the number accurate to 1%? I doubt it. Could I use it to identify failing caps? Youbetcha. I plugged a bunch of different components on it and was amazed at how well it detected good devices. I was far less impressed with the results on defective devices. I expected to be able to measure the ESR of a battery. No dice, unidentified component. OK, put a big cap in series and measure the sum. No dice. OK, match two cells, hook 'em up reversed so the sum voltage was zero. No dice. The designer of the tester had a vision of what the device should do that differs from mine. Nothing in the spec, or lack thereof, prepared me for that. I think I paid about $10 for the thing and am well pleased with it. If I had a production line shutdown depending on that diagnostic, I'd have been pissed. For a device this general, you can't please everybody. And the tighter specifications don't matter much. Any process that really depends on that accuracy will also require traceability. Is more really better? Sure, if you're matching 20V zeners, you could make a case. But how many people do that? What if, instead, you were matching Vbe on low noise microwave transistors, do you really want those three leads thrashing all over the place breaking down the device trying to determine what it is? Yes, nobody in their right mind would use this to do that, but not everybody is in their right mind. I'm sure you can come up with other cases where 24V is not a good thing. After watching the waveforms while it analyzed the component, I'm not sure that I like what it's doing to the parts. In case you missed it... Unless there's a lot going on that you haven't mentioned, I predict that this is a BAD IDEA. Yes, you can design/develop/manufacture/market/sell a product at a profit. I suggest, based on available disclosure, that this is not one of those cases. I have a story to tell. Hopefully, it's more helpful than a long, contentious thread about politics. Long ago in a galaxy far away, I attended a "club" of entrepreneurs who met to exchange ideas and provide support to one another. Attorneys were present to help you, for a fee, draft your patent applications and perform other necessary legal services. I listened to a bunch of presentations; most of them horror stories. The people who made money were the lawyers and the people collecting membership fees. The entrepreneurs, not so much. They all thought their idea was gonna make them rich. To a man-1, they were blinded by their brilliance and didn't have a clue about what it took to make a buck. Sure, some of the products were innovative. What was lacking was the business plan. The outlier understood that you can separate the user of the item from the one paying for it. He designed a plastic extrusion, cut it into 1" sections and sold it to advertising distributors. Businesses contracted with the distributors to have their advertisement printed on it and gave it to customers. Customers used it to clip a pencil to the sun visor of their car. It was free, so customers took a lot of them. It was profitable for the advertising distributor. It was cheap advertising for the businesses. The entrepreneur took orders for blank plastic from the few distributors and forwarded orders to the plant in China making the plastic. As I recall, he made about 5-cents each, but the volume was high and sales cost was near zero. There was no contact with actual user. Nobody cared about the quality of the plastic. There were no specifications. Life is sweet when the end user doesn't pay the cost and didn't even know he needed one. How well the product held pencils was not an issue. A competitor offering a product that held pencils "better" at the same price wouldn't get anywhere. The market is so huge that clones wouldn't impact sales. The entrepreneur was not selling pencil holders. He was selling efficient advertising. And he was not involved in either manufacture of the plastic or the sale of advertising. One more story, since I'm on a roll... One guy had a contract with local chain stores to supply lawn care products. I forget the details. Iron is an important factor in green lawns. The guy spread iron filings on his lawn and it got green. Since the iron didn't disperse, his lawn was still green the next year. OK now, we've got ourselves a product. He was so sure of his product that he offered a 5 year money back guarantee. He built a machine to bag iron filings and set up to produce. OOPS, you can't just buy iron filings. He had to buy a train car full of it and rent a space to store it. No problem, this is gonna make him rich. The stuff flew off the shelves. The first year was great. Two years later, people started wanting their money back. Vendors took it off the shelves. He had to pay back all the purchasers who demanded it. He still had almost a full train car load of iron filings that he couldn't get rid of. He had let his optimism override rigorous validation of his claims and it came back to bite him. I've got many more horror stories about how very smart people let their enthusiasm override logic.
