On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >wrote: > >>On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>> >> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >> >>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >> >>The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). > >What are you bloviating about? > >See... > >Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> > > ...Jim ThompsonI think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. One resistor, easy. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model Library....
Started by ●July 15, 2017
Reply by ●July 16, 20172017-07-16
Reply by ●July 16, 20172017-07-16
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:57:48 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>wrote: >> >>>On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> >> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >>> >>>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >>> >>>The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>>be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>>would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). >> >>What are you bloviating about? >> >>See... >> >>Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >I think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 >and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. > >One resistor, easy.Show us. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
Reply by ●July 16, 20172017-07-16
"Cursitor Doom" <curd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:okgh57$djj$26@dont-email.me...> Oh boy. Well, I guess Mike in his own defence would simply say he'd > refund you every single cent you paid for it. ;-)Good! Maybe then LT parts would be cost-competitive! ;-) (Reminder what you're referring to: LTSpice is a marketing tool, and as such, its development cost is rolled into the bottom line of _every part purchased_. Strictly speaking, parts would be cheaper without LTSpice. Presumably, they would get fewer design wins and therefore lower revenue if they dropped it, so LTSpice carries on.) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:12:41 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:57:48 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> >> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >>>> >>>>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>>>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >>>> >>>>The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>>>be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>>>would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). >>> >>>What are you bloviating about? >>> >>>See... >>> >>>Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >>I think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 >>and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. >> >>One resistor, easy. > >Show us. > > ...Jim ThompsonThe single-resistor+single-4007 thing is trivial, and adding hysteresis with one more resistor should be obvious. The trick would be to do it with no resistors, working with the 4007 pinout. This could work: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6g1h46nhsugb4t/CD4007_LS_1.JPG?raw=1 the trick being to get the first-stage pullup current down to some sane value. This circuit might work with 5V input, probably not at 3.3. Of course, there are better ways to do this function. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 20:19:14 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:12:41 -0700, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:57:48 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson >>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> >> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >>>>> >>>>>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>>>>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >>>>> >>>>>The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>>>>be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>>>>would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). >>>> >>>>What are you bloviating about? >>>> >>>>See... >>>> >>>>Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> >>>> >>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >>>I think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 >>>and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. >>> >>>One resistor, easy. >> >>Show us. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >The single-resistor+single-4007 thing is trivial, and adding >hysteresis with one more resistor should be obvious. The trick would >be to do it with no resistors, working with the 4007 pinout. > >This could work: > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6g1h46nhsugb4t/CD4007_LS_1.JPG?raw=1 > >the trick being to get the first-stage pullup current down to some >sane value. This circuit might work with 5V input, probably not at >3.3.I posted the Spice Model... show us that your scheme works.> >Of course, there are better ways to do this function.Yes. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On 17/07/2017 04:19, John Larkin wrote:> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:12:41 -0700, Jim Thompson > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:57:48 -0700, John Larkin >> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson >>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >>>>> >>>>>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>>>>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >>>>> >>>>> The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>>>> be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>>>> would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). >>>> >>>> What are you bloviating about? >>>> >>>> See... >>>> >>>> Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> >>>> >>>> ...Jim Thompson >>> >>> I think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 >>> and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. >>> >>> One resistor, easy. >> >> Show us. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > > The single-resistor+single-4007 thing is trivial, and adding > hysteresis with one more resistor should be obvious. The trick would > be to do it with no resistors, working with the 4007 pinout. > > This could work: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6g1h46nhsugb4t/CD4007_LS_1.JPG?raw=1 > > the trick being to get the first-stage pullup current down to some > sane value. This circuit might work with 5V input, probably not at > 3.3. > > Of course, there are better ways to do this function. > > >In the CD4007 some of the sources are not connected to their substrate so TGs become possible. How about in your circuit driving one of your input pmos gates from the output instead of the input? piglet --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 21:09:11 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 20:19:14 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:12:41 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:57:48 -0700, John Larkin >>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> >> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>>>>>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >>>>>> >>>>>>The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>>>>>be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>>>>>would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). >>>>> >>>>>What are you bloviating about? >>>>> >>>>>See... >>>>> >>>>>Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> >>>>> >>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>> >>>>I think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 >>>>and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. >>>> >>>>One resistor, easy. >>> >>>Show us. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >>The single-resistor+single-4007 thing is trivial, and adding >>hysteresis with one more resistor should be obvious. The trick would >>be to do it with no resistors, working with the 4007 pinout. >> >>This could work: >> >>https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6g1h46nhsugb4t/CD4007_LS_1.JPG?raw=1 >> >>the trick being to get the first-stage pullup current down to some >>sane value. This circuit might work with 5V input, probably not at >>3.3. > >I posted the Spice Model... show us that your scheme works.No reason to do that. Too much work, and it's not my problem.> >> >>Of course, there are better ways to do this function. > >Yes. > > ...Jim Thompson-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:31:33 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model Library, at Rochester Institute of >Technology, actual measurements by Professor Lynn Fuller... > ><https://people.rit.edu/lffeee/CD4007_SPICE_MODEL.pdf> > > > ...Jim ThompsonWith Dr. Fuller's permission, it is now also posted on the Device Models & Subcircuits Page of my website. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On 17/07/2017 09:18, Piglet wrote:> On 17/07/2017 04:19, John Larkin wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:12:41 -0700, Jim Thompson >> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:57:48 -0700, John Larkin >>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:35:38 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:55:25 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-7, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:02:11 +0100, Piglet >>>>>>> <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 15/07/2017 19:31, Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Good Find, CD4007 Spice Model >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm studying the pin out to see if it's a viable device to use for a >>>>>>> translator for conventional logic levels up to 15V swings. >>>>>> >>>>>> The protection diodes are wired so that those swings wouldn't >>>>>> be compatible with low PS voltages. The 4049 and 4050 >>>>>> would be a more usual solution (no positive-rail clamp on inputs). >>>>> >>>>> What are you bloviating about? >>>>> >>>>> See... >>>>> >>>>> Message-ID: <nmfnmctnkb54vmoicfniep2ktpnbk57t9u@4ax.com> >>>>> >>>>> ...Jim Thompson >>>> >>>> I think you can go 5 volts to 15 volts level conversion with a 4007 >>>> and zero external parts, but the power dissipation would be nasty. >>>> >>>> One resistor, easy. >>> >>> Show us. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> The single-resistor+single-4007 thing is trivial, and adding >> hysteresis with one more resistor should be obvious. The trick would >> be to do it with no resistors, working with the 4007 pinout. >> >> This could work: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6g1h46nhsugb4t/CD4007_LS_1.JPG?raw=1 >> >> the trick being to get the first-stage pullup current down to some >> sane value. This circuit might work with 5V input, probably not at >> 3.3. >> >> Of course, there are better ways to do this function. >> >> >> > > In the CD4007 some of the sources are not connected to their substrate > so TGs become possible. How about in your circuit driving one of your > input pmos gates from the output instead of the input? > > piglet > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > http://www.avg.com >If the TTL world provides complementary true and true-bar inputs to the level shifter then 2/3 of CD4007 can shift to high level very easily: <https://www.dropbox.com/s/gur02pqy5nv1ugo/IMG_20170717_TBLEVSHIFT.jpg?dl=0> If there are inverters or other CD4007s living in the low rail environment they could provide the low-level inversion. Real shame all the CD4007 p-channels are tied to Vdd - then this challenge would be simpler :> piglet
Reply by ●July 17, 20172017-07-17
On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 21:10:20 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote: [snip]>> > >If the TTL world provides complementary true and true-bar inputs to the >level shifter then 2/3 of CD4007 can shift to high level very easily: > ><https://www.dropbox.com/s/gur02pqy5nv1ugo/IMG_20170717_TBLEVSHIFT.jpg?dl=0> > >If there are inverters or other CD4007s living in the low rail >environment they could provide the low-level inversion.That is the classic way that level-shifting is done on-chip (with embellishments that minimize the peak current required at each transition). First thing I tried. The problem is that the N-channel devices are too 'weak' to overcome the P-channels, thus I went the route of the added resistors.> >Real shame all the CD4007 p-channels are tied to Vdd - then this >challenge would be simpler :> > >piglet >Only the body ties are to VDD, two of the P-channel devices have free sources. I'd would have loved to have a few 'free' N-channel gates, then my embellishment tricks could be implemented. On custom chip designs I have all those freedoms plus I can size devices at will ;-) (I think it was you, piglet, who commented, "...power from output" for the first inverter. That's also in my bag of tricks, but also wouldn't play because the N-channels at three volt gate drive are 'weenies' ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I'm looking for work... see my website. Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.
