Magamp oscillator

On 06/11/2015 00:39, John Larkin wrote:
>
> Do you mean the old central office ring generators? There is very
> little online about them, but they seemed to be rotating
> motor-generators mostly. The CO stuff did all ultimately run off 48
> volts DC.
>
> Do you know of a non-rotating, non-semiconductor, DC powered ring
> generator? Bell was pretty good with magnetics.
>
>

I think you're correct. I saw this:
<http://www.telephonetribute.com/switches_survey_chapter_12.html>
which seems to say that the subharmonic mag-amps were energized by 
utility 60Hz power and DC rotary convertors handled power outages.

US patent US2452239 shows a local application but again the ringing 
generator is pumped at 60Hz.

piglet

On 04/11/2015 10:00, whit3rd wrote:

> Magnetic amplifiers are in the general class of 'parametric amplifiers'; I think
> some of the ferroresonant tricks were given names such as "parametric
> transformer", but one would have to search a lot of old sales brochures to be sure.
>

Many thanks for clarifying - makes mag-amps seem less terrifying when I 
can relate them to varactor para-amps!

piglet

On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:55:37 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
>> Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
>> non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?
>>
>>      Best regards, Piotr
>
>There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I know 
>nothing but assuming it works like a varactor diode parametric amplifier 
>then I suppose it could be made to oscillate, I guess it needs a higher 
>frequency pump to provide the power source?
>
>piglet

Right. Core saturation creates a nonlinear element that can do things,
but it needs an AC pump.

Here is a diode acting like a subharmonic oscillator. Same sort of
idea.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Oscillators/SubHarmonic.jpg

Quick proof-of-concept hack. Could be optimized.






-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On 11/06/2015 03:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:55:37 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
>>> Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
>>> non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?
>>>
>>>       Best regards, Piotr
>>
>> There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I know
>> nothing but assuming it works like a varactor diode parametric amplifier
>> then I suppose it could be made to oscillate, I guess it needs a higher
>> frequency pump to provide the power source?
>>
>> piglet
>
> Right. Core saturation creates a nonlinear element that can do things,
> but it needs an AC pump.
>
> Here is a diode acting like a subharmonic oscillator. Same sort of
> idea.
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Oscillators/SubHarmonic.jpg
>
> Quick proof-of-concept hack. Could be optimized.

That happens in active peak detectors too, if you get the time constants 
wrong.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs




-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On 06/11/15 21:50, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:55:37 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
>>> Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
>>> non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?
>>>
>>>       Best regards, Piotr
>>
>> There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I know
>> nothing but assuming it works like a varactor diode parametric amplifier
>> then I suppose it could be made to oscillate, I guess it needs a higher
>> frequency pump to provide the power source?
>>
>> piglet
>
> Right. Core saturation creates a nonlinear element that can do things,
> but it needs an AC pump.
>
> Here is a diode acting like a subharmonic oscillator. Same sort of
> idea.
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Oscillators/SubHarmonic.jpg
>
> Quick proof-of-concept hack. Could be optimized.

You brought this up some time ago when I asked about passive
circuits generating lower frequencies from a single higher input
frequency. (The equivalent of what a BBO crystal does with light.)

But this doesn't work. What you're really seeing in this circuit
is just the switch-on transient response of the tank, and which
dies out pretty quickly.

Jeroen Belleman

Phil - do you know of a source for tunnel diodes? Preferably less than 
$100.

Hul

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 11/03/2015 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
> > <peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:
> >
> >> John Larkin wrote:
> >>
> >>> If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
> >>> parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
> >> It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
> >> for example:
> >>
> >> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm
> >>
> >> The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
> >> started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
> >> oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
> >> maybe it is "yes" indeed?
> >>
> >>      Best regards, Piotr
> >
> > You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
> > rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.
> >
> > Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
> > tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.
> >
> >
> >
> Well, tunnel diodes work.

> Cheers

> Phil Hobbs

> -- 
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

> 160 North State Road #203
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

> hobbs at electrooptical dot net
> http://electrooptical.net

On 06/11/15 22:34, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 11/06/2015 03:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:55:37 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
>>>> Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
>>>> non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?
>>>>
>>>>       Best regards, Piotr
>>>
>>> There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I know
>>> nothing but assuming it works like a varactor diode parametric amplifier
>>> then I suppose it could be made to oscillate, I guess it needs a higher
>>> frequency pump to provide the power source?
>>>
>>> piglet
>>
>> Right. Core saturation creates a nonlinear element that can do things,
>> but it needs an AC pump.
>>
>> Here is a diode acting like a subharmonic oscillator. Same sort of
>> idea.
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Oscillators/SubHarmonic.jpg
>>
>>
>> Quick proof-of-concept hack. Could be optimized.
>
> That happens in active peak detectors too, if you get the time constants
> wrong.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

In active circuitry, sure. I'd like to see some passive circuit that
does this. Non-linearity is not enough. You need a bifurcation in
the phase space trajectory.

Something with a tunnel diode would work.

Jeroen Belleman

On 11/06/2015 05:30 PM, Hul Tytus wrote:
> Phil - do you know of a source for tunnel diodes? Preferably less than
> $100.
>
> Hul
>
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> On 11/03/2015 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
>>> <peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
>>>>> parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
>>>> It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
>>>> for example:
>>>>
>>>> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm
>>>>
>>>> The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
>>>> started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
>>>> oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
>>>> maybe it is "yes" indeed?
>>>>
>>>>       Best regards, Piotr
>>>
>>> You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
>>> rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.
>>>
>>> Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
>>> tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Well, tunnel diodes work.
>
>> Cheers
>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
You can get back diodes, which are similar but not exactly the same as 
TDs for oscillators and triggers.

My stash all came from eBay.  Most of the old-style TDs had gross 
amounts of capacitance, like 200 pF.  If you want speed, you have to 
find diodes with 100-200mA peak currents.  Most of mine are only a few mA.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On 11/06/2015 05:41 PM, jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 06/11/15 22:34, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 11/06/2015 03:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:55:37 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
>>>>> Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
>>>>> non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?
>>>>>
>>>>>       Best regards, Piotr
>>>>
>>>> There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I
>>>> know
>>>> nothing but assuming it works like a varactor diode parametric
>>>> amplifier
>>>> then I suppose it could be made to oscillate, I guess it needs a higher
>>>> frequency pump to provide the power source?
>>>>
>>>> piglet
>>>
>>> Right. Core saturation creates a nonlinear element that can do things,
>>> but it needs an AC pump.
>>>
>>> Here is a diode acting like a subharmonic oscillator. Same sort of
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Oscillators/SubHarmonic.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quick proof-of-concept hack. Could be optimized.
>>
>> That happens in active peak detectors too, if you get the time constants
>> wrong.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> In active circuitry, sure. I'd like to see some passive circuit that
> does this. Non-linearity is not enough. You need a bifurcation in
> the phase space trajectory.
>
> Something with a tunnel diode would work.
>
> Jeroen Belleman

You don't think that a 1N5819 and a tank circuit is passive?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 22:30:29 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com>
wrote:

>Phil - do you know of a source for tunnel diodes? Preferably less than 
>$100.
>
>Hul
>

Lots of people make "back diodes" which are tunnel diodes with low Ip
currents. They are really designed to be RF detectors, although they
do have a negative resistance region.

http://www.mpulsemw.com/Tunnel_Diode.htm

Somebody (GPD I think) was making the original GE Ge TDs for a while,
the fast switchers, but they may be gone now. I can't find them.

These folks sell TDs, but I don't know if they are old stock or new
manufactured.

http://www.americanmicrosemi.com/OnlineStore/Diodes/tunnel-diodes/