doing a bit more reading i came across an old papper by the us navy that includes a free running multivibrator. that is a square (ish) wave oscillator.
going back to my suggested design above just to say it is based on the joule thief.
the main coil and coil 2, are wound as for the joule thief and serve the same function.
controle coil 3 and the main coil do the switching / take the place of the transister.
from my reading i would suggest having more turns on coil 2, backed up with a diode to ensure that the current only flows in the right direction.
--
For full context, visit https://www.electrondepot.com/electrodesign/magamp-oscillator-783971-.htm
Reply by legg●May 22, 20232023-05-22
On Sun, 21 May 2023 14:30:04 +0000, john
<1877948422cb8be02cf5175c606bf923@example.com> wrote:
>yes!
>it irratates me when people say "every thing that can be invented hes been invented." however mealy mouthed they are about it.
>to make a magamp oscillator you will need;
>1) a meadium resister
>2) enough suitable wire to wind 3 equal coils
>3) (1 bitt core ) 1 torroidal core and 1 broken torroidal core, that can be glued on to the side of the compleat torroid to make a bitorroidal transformer core with air gaps.
>onto the common leg of the bitt core wind the main coil, conect one end the the battery the other end becomes the ac out put on a dc bias.
>the second coil is wound on the main torroid, so as to oppose the direction of the magnetic flux from the main coil, when it is conected via the resister to the lead from the battery.
>the third (comtrole) coil is wound onto the air gapped leg of the bitt core. it is in series with the second coil and is wound so as to further desaturate the core through the main coil. and conected back to the opposit side of the battery.
>electricaly that is;
>battery, main coil, the ac outout is between the end of that coil and the battery.
>battery, resister, second coil, third coil, battery.
> the action
>the power is switched on, the flux in the torroidal side of the bitt gose towards saturation. the transformer action between the main coil and coil 2 stops any corrent flowing through the resister, or that circuit.
>the core saturates, there is no more transformer action, the curent flows through coils 2 and 3 starting to desaturate the core. increasing the resistance in the main coil.
>by transformer action the falling curent in the main coil increases the current in coils 2 and 3, driving the core towards saturation in the revers direction.
>the core saturates and the dc curent from the battery through the main coil becomes dominant and the cycle repeats.
>this might be useful for thing like electric car in hot climbets.
Your link is to a 'mirrored' SED thread that's 7 years ols.
Your description is of magnetic material and copper wire
that does NOTHING, given the manual power switch as its
only active element.
RL
Reply by Anthony William Sloman●May 21, 20232023-05-21
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 6:50:53 AM UTC+11, amdx wrote:
> On 11/3/2015 12:03 PM, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
> > legg wrote:
<snip>
> I don't know if this is helpful, but here is an oscillator that runs on 5.5mv B+. So it doesn't take much wiggle to work, now you just need
> to find out how to wiggle it with out the FETs.
> Needs a core that will saturate at less than 0.40 ma somewhere. ;-)
Cores don't saturate at a particular current, but at particular number of ampere-turns. If you can wind enough turns of very fine wire around your core, 0.40mA would saturate it. 50A/metre is a ball-park figure. For an RM8 core the magnetic path length is about 40mm so 2Ain one turn would do it, or 0.4ma in 10,000 turns - which would be down close to 0.1mm OD enameled copper wire on an RM 8 core, which is finer than I could wind. Professional coil winders could do it,.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by john●May 21, 20232023-05-21
yes!
it irratates me when people say "every thing that can be invented hes been invented." however mealy mouthed they are about it.
to make a magamp oscillator you will need;
1) a meadium resister
2) enough suitable wire to wind 3 equal coils
3) (1 bitt core ) 1 torroidal core and 1 broken torroidal core, that can be glued on to the side of the compleat torroid to make a bitorroidal transformer core with air gaps.
onto the common leg of the bitt core wind the main coil, conect one end the the battery the other end becomes the ac out put on a dc bias.
the second coil is wound on the main torroid, so as to oppose the direction of the magnetic flux from the main coil, when it is conected via the resister to the lead from the battery.
the third (comtrole) coil is wound onto the air gapped leg of the bitt core. it is in series with the second coil and is wound so as to further desaturate the core through the main coil. and conected back to the opposit side of the battery.
electricaly that is;
battery, main coil, the ac outout is between the end of that coil and the battery.
battery, resister, second coil, third coil, battery.
the action
the power is switched on, the flux in the torroidal side of the bitt gose towards saturation. the transformer action between the main coil and coil 2 stops any corrent flowing through the resister, or that circuit.
the core saturates, there is no more transformer action, the curent flows through coils 2 and 3 starting to desaturate the core. increasing the resistance in the main coil.
by transformer action the falling curent in the main coil increases the current in coils 2 and 3, driving the core towards saturation in the revers direction.
the core saturates and the dc curent from the battery through the main coil becomes dominant and the cycle repeats.
this might be useful for thing like electric car in hot climbets.
--
For full context, visit https://www.electrondepot.com/electrodesign/magamp-oscillator-783971-.htm
Reply by krw●November 27, 20152015-11-27
On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 20:38:11 -0800, Robert Baer
<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:
>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw<krw@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin
>>>>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw<krw@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg<legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
>>>>>>>>>>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> low enough loss.
>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
>>>>>>>>>>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> RL
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
>>>>>>>>> make oscillators.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
>>>>>>>>> argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
>>>>>>>>> a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
>>>>>>>>> oscillator too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not gain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not an oscillator, either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum,
>>>>>> just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding
>>>>>> energy keeps the oscillation from dying out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric
>>>>>> oscillator is phase-locked to the pump.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're
>>>>> alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no
>>>>> amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator?
>>>>
>>> Well...
>>
>> We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillators
>>
>>
> A _driven_ pendulum may be an oscillator (under the proper conditions).
We've been over this (many times) but I propose that it also needs
feedback, else what's driving it is the oscillator and the pendulum is
a resonator (or filter).
Reply by Joe Gwinn●November 27, 20152015-11-27
In article <iwO5y.194687$qL.42162@fx15.iad>, Robert Baer
<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 08:49:10 -0800, Robert Baer
> > <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
> >>> <peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
> >>>>> parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
> >>>> It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
> >>>> for example:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm
> >>>>
> >>>> The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
> >>>> started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
> >>>> oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
> >>>> maybe it is "yes" indeed?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards, Piotr
> >>>
> >>> You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
> >>> rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.
> >>>
> >>> Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
> >>> tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> And the bee cannot fly.
> >
> > Some things are actually impossible.
> >
> > Bees can obviously fly. What idiot decided that they can't?
> >
> > If you can design an oscillator that meets Piotr's requirements, we'd
> > love to see it.
> >
> >
> Been doing some modelling in head, as i do not know how to do Spice
> nonlinear inductors, and a few other things.
>
> Since nobody wants to tell how the Bell ring generator works, here
> are some (known?) parameters needed to design one from scratch:
> 1. One non-linear inductor, value in order of 1Hy.
> 2. 60Hz drive "pump" signal.
> 3. Hybrid transformer used mainly to cancel the 60Hz from/at the output.
> 4. At least one non-polarized capacitor, value in order of 1uF.
> 5. Parametric amplifier design needed, may need another winding on
> hybrid for feedback to oscillate.
>
> There is an indication that DC might be used in place of the 60Hz
> drive,but it seems to me that makes the start-up harder.
In the old days, it was simply a motor-generator that ran off 48 Vdc
(the main office battery) and generated 20 Hz. No electronics. A
mechanical commutator driven off the motor-generator shaft interrupted
the continuous 20 Hz into the one second on four seconds off AT&T ring
cadence. All five commutator phases were used, so the load on the 20
Hz generator was roughly constant.
Joe Gwinn
Reply by Robert Baer●November 27, 20152015-11-27
John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw<krw@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin
>>>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw<krw@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg<legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
>>>>>>>>>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
>>>>>>>>>>> low enough loss.
>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
>>>>>>>>>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> RL
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
>>>>>>>> make oscillators.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
>>>>>>>> argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
>>>>>>>> a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
>>>>>>>> oscillator too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not gain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not an oscillator, either.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum,
>>>>> just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding
>>>>> energy keeps the oscillation from dying out.
>>>>>
>>>>> A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric
>>>>> oscillator is phase-locked to the pump.
>>>>>
>>>> You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're
>>>> alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no
>>>> amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator?
>>>
>> Well...
>
> We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillators
>
>
A _driven_ pendulum may be an oscillator (under the proper conditions).
Reply by Robert Baer●November 26, 20152015-11-26
John Larkin wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2015 05:14:54 -0800, Winfield Hill
> <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>> jeroen Belleman wrote...
>>>
>>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
>>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.
>>>>
>>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
>>>> low enough loss.
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
>>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.
>>>
>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>
>>> ======== Cut here ========
>>> Version 4
>>> SHEET 1 880 680
>>> WIRE 240 80 144 80
>>> WIRE 288 80 240 80
>>> WIRE 144 96 144 80
>>> WIRE 288 128 288 80
>>> WIRE 144 208 144 160
>>> WIRE 144 208 96 208
>>> WIRE 144 256 144 208
>>> WIRE 288 272 288 208
>>> WIRE 144 352 144 336
>>> FLAG 288 272 0
>>> FLAG 144 352 0
>>> FLAG 240 80 tank
>>> FLAG 96 208 pump
>>> SYMBOL varactor 128 96 R0
>>> SYMATTR InstName D1
>>> SYMATTR Value MV2201
>>> SYMBOL ind 272 112 R0
>>> SYMATTR InstName L1
>>> SYMATTR Value 1�
>>> SYMBOL voltage 144 240 R0
>>> WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
>>> WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
>>> SYMATTR InstName V1
>>> SYMATTR Value SINE(1 1 96.08meg)
>>> TEXT 176 24 Left 2 !.tran 10u
>>
>> Is that LTSpice? It complains, Multiple instances of "Flag"
>
> I ran it in the current LT Spice, except that ? should be u.
>
> It's amazing. Divides by 2 with gain!
>
>
>
>
It is a parametric amplifier; naturally there should be gain.
Reply by Robert Baer●November 26, 20152015-11-26
Winfield Hill wrote:
> jeroen Belleman wrote...
>>
>> On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
>>> frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.
>>>
>>> All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
>>> low enough loss.
>>> [...]
>>
>>
>> OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
>> persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.
>>
>> Jeroen Belleman
>>
>> ======== Cut here ========
>> Version 4
>> SHEET 1 880 680
>> WIRE 240 80 144 80
>> WIRE 288 80 240 80
>> WIRE 144 96 144 80
>> WIRE 288 128 288 80
>> WIRE 144 208 144 160
>> WIRE 144 208 96 208
>> WIRE 144 256 144 208
>> WIRE 288 272 288 208
>> WIRE 144 352 144 336
>> FLAG 288 272 0
>> FLAG 144 352 0
>> FLAG 240 80 tank
>> FLAG 96 208 pump
>> SYMBOL varactor 128 96 R0
>> SYMATTR InstName D1
>> SYMATTR Value MV2201
>> SYMBOL ind 272 112 R0
>> SYMATTR InstName L1
>> SYMATTR Value 1�
>> SYMBOL voltage 144 240 R0
>> WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
>> WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
>> SYMATTR InstName V1
>> SYMATTR Value SINE(1 1 96.08meg)
>> TEXT 176 24 Left 2 !.tran 10u
>
> Is that LTSpice? It complains, Multiple instances of "Flag"
>
>
>
>
> The "decimonic" K5 produced 20Hz and 30Hz by para-amp action and then
> mixed to generate 40Hz and 50Hz (10Hz spacing=decimonic) by a demonic
> circuit shown in the download fig 8.
>
> piglet
Got me confused WRT U.S. Coast Guard LORAN...
"Demonic"? Any ogres, griffons, witches or other nasties?