On 1/18/2024 4:09 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:> I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern > cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving, > but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely > interfere with it.Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also is a result of bad functional decisions. Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals, select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning, etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes off the road. Want heat? Move this lever to HERE. ACbrrr? Move it to THERE. Want the air directed out the floor vents? Slide to THIS position. Out the vents in the dash? Then this OTHER position is appropriate. Third radio preset is the third button from the left -- one, two THREE! Turn knob for volume, outer ring for "tone". Other outer ring was balance with inner fine-tuning for radio. Too many engineers are designing UIs instead of application specialists. Imagine a vehicle with nothing but a touchscreen: "You can put any control you want on the screen! <big, self-satisfied smile>" "Yeah, and you'll always have the driver looking at *it* instead of the road!" SWMBO's vehicle has separate temperature controls for driver and passenger (likewise for rear seat occupants). And, a simple mechanism to SYNC them together (to the driver's control). "Do I push SYNC a second time to UNsync them? No, that didn't work. What else can I *try*?" (note the driver's attention is now on solving the HVAC control problem instead of piloting the vehicle) Pushbutton (soft toggle) control to *enable* the ACrrr. But, no way to tell if it is currently enabled, or not! "Push the button and see if the display indicates OFF or ON; then push it, again, if not what you wanted." Car remembers *certain* driver-specific settings. Like the fact that I want "USB" to be the first audio choice (from a dozen or so) while SWMBO wants "HARD DISK". So, I can find the selection I want knowing the list is ordered as I left it. But, the actual selection that I will encounter when I enter the vehicle will depend on how the previous driver left it! "What the hell radio station is THIS? It's not even in my list of favorites (so how did 'I' pick it?)." I.e., if you are going to remember some things as driver-specific (seat positions, mirror positions, radio presets, order of audio input source choices, etc.) then why would you NOT remember ALL of them? Why leave the drive puzzled wondering why something isn't as he expected it to be?> Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What > were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh!Or, annunciators with no intuitive interpretations: "What the hell does THAT sound signify? I've never heard it, before..." There are "indicators" in SWMBOs vehicle that apparently reflect SOMETHING; but, I'll be damned if I can find a correlation between them and any other observable state in the vehicle! So much information that it's effectively NO information!
frozen Teslas
Started by ●January 16, 2024
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
On 1/19/24 08:56, Don Y wrote:> On 1/18/2024 4:09 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote: >> I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern >> cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving, >> but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely >> interfere with it. > > Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also > is a result of bad functional decisions. > > Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals, > select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning, > etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations > of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes > off the road. > > Want heat? Move this lever to HERE. ACbrrr? Move it to THERE. > Want the air directed out the floor vents? Slide to THIS > position. Out the vents in the dash? Then this OTHER position > is appropriate. > > Third radio preset is the third button from the left -- one, two THREE! > Turn knob for volume, outer ring for "tone". Other outer ring was > balance with inner fine-tuning for radio. > > Too many engineers are designing UIs instead of application specialists. > Imagine a vehicle with nothing but a touchscreen: "You can put any > control you want on the screen! <big, self-satisfied smile>" > "Yeah, and you'll always have the driver looking at *it* instead of the > road!" > > SWMBO's vehicle has separate temperature controls for driver and passenger > (likewise for rear seat occupants). And, a simple mechanism to SYNC > them together (to the driver's control). "Do I push SYNC a second time > to UNsync them? No, that didn't work. What else can I *try*?" (note > the driver's attention is now on solving the HVAC control problem > instead of piloting the vehicle) > > Pushbutton (soft toggle) control to *enable* the ACrrr. But, no way to > tell if it is currently enabled, or not! "Push the button and see if > the display indicates OFF or ON; then push it, again, if not what you > wanted." > > Car remembers *certain* driver-specific settings. Like the fact that > I want "USB" to be the first audio choice (from a dozen or so) while > SWMBO wants "HARD DISK". So, I can find the selection I want knowing the > list is ordered as I left it. > > But, the actual selection that I will encounter when I enter the > vehicle will depend on how the previous driver left it! "What the > hell radio station is THIS? It's not even in my list of favorites > (so how did 'I' pick it?)." > > I.e., if you are going to remember some things as driver-specific > (seat positions, mirror positions, radio presets, order of audio > input source choices, etc.) then why would you NOT remember ALL > of them? Why leave the drive puzzled wondering why something > isn't as he expected it to be? > >> Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What >> were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh! > > Or, annunciators with no intuitive interpretations: > "What the hell does THAT sound signify? I've never heard it, before..." > > There are "indicators" in SWMBOs vehicle that apparently reflect SOMETHING; > but, I'll be damned if I can find a correlation between them and any other > observable state in the vehicle! > > So much information that it's effectively NO information! >And its automatic gearbox! A piece of shit! You have to move the lever backwards to drive forwards, or forwards to reverse, if it obeys at all. Under certain circumstances, it will just ignore my input, I haven't yet figured out all of those. The lever always returns to the same position, so there is no no way to tell by feel what state it's in. You have to *look*. It has far too many modes. Efficiency, comfort, sport, manual, ... It will change mode for no apparent reason, or at least I haven't yet figured out what those reasons might be. It has two paddles at the wheel for manually shifting up or down which are ignored half the time, but which act with a good second of delay when they do work. I've since long abandoned trying to use those. They're too unpredictable. I have yet to discover how to prevent it from shifting up when I want to use continuous engine brake in a steep descent, and no, I'm not exceeding, or even approaching, maximum engine revs. This does *not* help! In reality, a mechanical stick shift was so much simpler! Grrr. Jeroen Belleman
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
On 1/19/2024 3:13 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:> And its automatic gearbox! A piece of shit! You have to move the > lever backwards to drive forwards, or forwards to reverse, if > it obeys at all. Under certain circumstances, it will just ignore > my input, I haven't yet figured out all of those. The lever always > returns to the same position, so there is no no way to tell by feel > what state it's in. You have to *look*.*You* are just there to provide "suggestions". Advice that *it* is free to ignore. This attitude has pervaded much design. Why do I have to put my name on line one and address on line two -- if I just want to see what the tax liability of a hypothetical person with income X is likely to be? Some idiot decides how you *should* use something. Then, goes out of his way to force you to adopt his (faulty) logic.> It has far too many modes. Efficiency, comfort, sport, manual, ... > It will change mode for no apparent reason, or at least I haven't > yet figured out what those reasons might be. It has two paddles at > the wheel for manually shifting up or down which are ignored half > the time, but which act with a good second of delay when they do > work. I've since long abandoned trying to use those. They're too > unpredictable.Yup. "No, you are going too fast to downshift to 5th. I'm going to keep you here, in 6th -- for at least the foreseeable future." "But, I'm headed down a 3 mile long grade! I *really* don't want to smoke my brakes trying to keep the car from continuously accelerating!"> I have yet to discover how to prevent it from shifting up when I > want to use continuous engine brake in a steep descent, and no, > I'm not exceeding, or even approaching, maximum engine revs.Exactly. I think we can lock SWMBO's vehicle into a choice of 1st and 2nd gears. But, I've not yet tested that. (and, 1st or second would be way too much reduction given the speed limit is 55MPH!)> This does *not* help! In reality, a mechanical stick shift was so > much simpler! Grrr.Again, *it* decides how you should use it. You can offer suggestions but it is free to ignore those. When I leave the cabin -- with the engine running -- the car throws a hissy fit... beeping urgently (as if I don't KNOW that I am no longer in the car??) Or, leaving the vehicle with the keyfob still inside AND A PASSENGER PRESENT (remember, *it* can sense the position of a body on the seat!)! "Did you think I was going to lock myself out? You won't LET me lock the doors UNLESS I have the fob in my possession, so why the drama??" The rear hatch (SUV) has a powered opener/closer. But, can only exist in the OPEN or CLOSED state. What if I want to drive with a 10' piece of lumber hanging out the back? Isn't this one of the advantages of an SUV ("station wagon" is how they are classified) over a sedan or coupe? There's not even a place where you can *tie* the hatch partially closed! (e.g., with something padded to keep it in that partially open state). I had to fabricate a bit of chain and "trick" the hatch into thinking it is closed (on the D-ring at one end of my chain) so I could secure the other end of the chain to the intended latch. By contrast, a forklift is relatively intuitive. Granted, you have to learn which of the controls raises/lowers the forks, tips them forward/back, shifts them left/right, etc. But, you are free to unbalance the load (outside the triangle of stability) and topple the truck if you so desire! Idiots need not apply (cars can't make that same assumption). You get to make *one* mistake (hopefully wthout causing bodily injury) before you're *out*!
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
In article <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid says...> > Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also > is a result of bad functional decisions. > > Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals, > select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning, > etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations > of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes > off the road. > > >You have a good point. Too much stuff in the car to do. I have had to pull off the road several times to find out what button or where on the screen to push to get the car set where I wanted some things like the defroster. Like one fellow told me his new car had a book on just the 'radio' that was larger than the book for the operation og the car.
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
On 1/19/2024 8:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:> In article <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid > says... >> >> Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also >> is a result of bad functional decisions. >> >> Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals, >> select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning, >> etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations >> of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes >> off the road. > > You have a good point. Too much stuff in the car to do. I have had to > pull off the road several times to find out what button or where on the > screen to push to get the car set where I wanted some things like the > defroster.Yes. We have a dedicated button to select from among the N different HVAC-routing choices (feet, feet&dash, defrost, rear defrost, etc.). But, you have to look at a screen to see what the button press has done; there is no static display of the current setting, just a display of the NEW setting (which times out sometime after you stop poking it). As it rarely rains, here, the first rainfall of the season (e.g., Monsoon), has us scurrying to figure out where the *front* wiper controls are located (on a column-mounted stick) and which way to turn them for intermittent vs. low, high, wash, etc. After the second or third rainfall, you have sorted this out (even the location of the controls for the rear window!)... and then it stops raining for another 6 months! Or, "why is my seat hot?" Ah, she set her purse down on the seat heater control -- which you forget exists except for the three cold mornings each year when you go LOOKING for it! Opening the sunroof is yet another "experiment": "Which way do I press it to cause it to 'vent" vs. open fully?"> Like one fellow told me his new car had a book on just the 'radio' that > was larger than the book for the operation og the car.Yup. And, that doesn't count the "configuration options" (which tend to be largely static): "When driver unlocks their door, should all the OTHER doors ALSO be unlocked? Should the doors automatically LOCK when the car is put in motion? Should..." There is too much thinking involved to be able to make use of all those gizmos! And, they are often inadequately implemented. E.g., I once asked the navigation system to give me directions to "Pennys". I was puzzled when it told me it was a 20 hour trip! WTF? *Ohio*??? Ah, apparently I meant "Penneys" and the navigation system was silly enough not to wonder why I was looking for a destination so far from home (and did nothing to draw my attention to that fact). Did you know that you aren't supposed to specify "EAST Main Street"? No such place! But, if you specify "Main Street", it will give you the choice of selecting from "East Main Street" and "West Main street" (assuming the house number exists in both places). One can make excuses for the technology in that it is cost sensitive, resource constrained, etc. But, if you can't make it work, then why *offer* it? And, why does it take 30 seconds before it will recognize a button press? What idiot designed the software to require that much initialization BEFORE it can start responding to events? [I don't think car manufacturers have the skillsets internally to do these things and farm much of it out to third parties... who often don't know how to quiz the client on the pertinent design goals/constraints. Look at the brain damage Kia inflicted on its owners...]
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
The arsehole Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: frozen Teslas > Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 00:56:32 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 70 > Message-ID: <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me> > References: <ntcdqitb6p6h0gnip4c69e0crcld3rlseu@4ax.com> > <v53jqip70915bhbqfllji82l9f2em8unnj@4ax.com> <uocb5t$2pnr0$1@dont-email.me> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 07:56:41 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="31763d5f39f0d517e2f7dfc895b019f6"; > logging-data="3205989"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19WQyxvbub54nD2zpKRhtLQ" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:64uipp2NgBC+pNJxAinz4kNA7fI= > Content-Language: en-US > In-Reply-To: <uocb5t$2pnr0$1@dont-email.me> > X-Received-Bytes: 4399
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
The idiot Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: frozen Teslas > Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 11:13:06 +0100 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 95 > Message-ID: <uodi19$337ad$1@dont-email.me> > References: <ntcdqitb6p6h0gnip4c69e0crcld3rlseu@4ax.com> > <v53jqip70915bhbqfllji82l9f2em8unnj@4ax.com> <uocb5t$2pnr0$1@dont-email.me> > <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Injection-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:14:02 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="251e5fe08efd3911ede9aa773cd61438"; > logging-data="3251533"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19zFFPMj20dAiftI1ZjmUdM" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.13.0 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:oEydj5YqXiWGOE8Pl+vEmSmsISo= > In-Reply-To: <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me> > Content-Language: en-US > X-Received-Bytes: 5716
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
The idiot Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: frozen Teslas > Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 03:50:55 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 77 > Message-ID: <uodk6n$33j20$2@dont-email.me> > References: <ntcdqitb6p6h0gnip4c69e0crcld3rlseu@4ax.com> > <v53jqip70915bhbqfllji82l9f2em8unnj@4ax.com> <uocb5t$2pnr0$1@dont-email.me> > <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me> <uodi19$337ad$1@dont-email.me> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:51:05 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="31763d5f39f0d517e2f7dfc895b019f6"; > logging-data="3263552"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/WxI35t+2j/ZHhjkWzz2a2" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:junRlgSKpUl8Kty2LNFRq6hewrk= > Content-Language: en-US > In-Reply-To: <uodi19$337ad$1@dont-email.me> > X-Received-Bytes: 4934
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
The idiot Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: frozen Teslas > Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:49:08 -0500 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 24 > Message-ID: <MPG.401463f8f41effff989ef3@news.eternal-september.org> > References: <ntcdqitb6p6h0gnip4c69e0crcld3rlseu@4ax.com> <v53jqip70915bhbqfllji82l9f2em8unnj@4ax.com> <uocb5t$2pnr0$1@dont-email.me> <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="64247b6ff2a27247fdb064582fb9579b"; > logging-data="3369567"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/H2PByRSLwqosFSnMAlC92qdaxF85LevA=" > User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/3.0.4 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:aXA4BFt9tOrwm1Oj352pYhHdDn0= > X-Received-Bytes: 1883
Reply by ●January 19, 20242024-01-19
The arsehole Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll... -- Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:> Path: not-for-mail > From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> > Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design > Subject: Re: frozen Teslas > Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:07:19 -0700 > Organization: A noiseless patient Spider > Lines: 77 > Message-ID: <uoea8g$37oag$2@dont-email.me> > References: <ntcdqitb6p6h0gnip4c69e0crcld3rlseu@4ax.com> > <v53jqip70915bhbqfllji82l9f2em8unnj@4ax.com> <uocb5t$2pnr0$1@dont-email.me> > <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me> > <MPG.401463f8f41effff989ef3@news.eternal-september.org> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Injection-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 17:07:28 -0000 (UTC) > Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="31763d5f39f0d517e2f7dfc895b019f6"; > logging-data="3400016"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18Rks47ixu6n0sxhocNKADT" > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/102.2.2 > Cancel-Lock: sha1:qPKAE7NLLLSsQbzKfpeAgcXXptQ= > In-Reply-To: <MPG.401463f8f41effff989ef3@news.eternal-september.org> > Content-Language: en-US > X-Received-Bytes: 4900
