On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote:> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone >> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as >> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. > > Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)? > Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the > subscriber's premises?Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic "Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange. Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!> > Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair > that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain > can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman > can get around to actually checking the line, in person.That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which makes it very noisy and can break conductors.> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a > "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is > terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises > wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can > "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility > to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is "conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office. Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top.>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to >> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they >> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with >> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies >> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave >> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it. > > Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable > that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to > the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance > to present.It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else. It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs. I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration (it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole. https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to >> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems >> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. > > Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the > AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service > procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to > fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar > and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters > from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!). > > Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles, > accessing that from the underside.Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation (and they are now moving into my area of the UK). https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html>-- Martin Brown
speed test
Started by ●September 12, 2023
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On 15/09/2023 16:44, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:21:06 +0100, Martin Brown > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:>>> Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd >>> because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be >>> taste or smell. >> >> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide >> their choice of exactly what to nibble. > > I've heard lots of theories on why rodents like to chew on wire, but > none has ever been shown to be more likely than any other, let alone > proven.We had a working theory that somehow they knew the price per metre and generally preferred the most expensive one that they could find! (or the one that was most difficult to replace)>> We solved our problems on radio >> telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. > > That would certainly do it.It also meant there was no variation in humidity to affect timing or signal phase (which was the main reason for doing it). -- Martin Brown
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:51:56 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:>On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote: >> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone >>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as >>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. >> >> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)? >> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the >> subscriber's premises? > >Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel >underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles >inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic >"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange. > >Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes >it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to >work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires! >> >> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair >> that runs the length of the street, below grade).� So, a (rare!) rain >> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman >> can get around to actually checking the line, in person. > >That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter >and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition >tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which >makes it very noisy and can break conductors. > >> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a >> "telephone network interface" box:� the utility's feed is >> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks.� The premises >> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs.� So, a subscriber can >> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility >> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test. > >That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so >you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are >supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is >"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper >cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different >pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office. > >Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a >Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top. > >>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to >>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they >>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with >>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies >>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave >>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it. >> >> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable >> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to >> the subdivision.� Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance >> to present. > >It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or >rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and >any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else. > >It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS >engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs. > >I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration >(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't >too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of >multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole. > >https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/ > >>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to >>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems >>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. >> >> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the >> AC mains (which are also below grade).� Part of the service >> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to >> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar >> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters >> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!). >> >> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles, >> accessing that from the underside. > >Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation >(and they are now moving into my area of the UK). > >https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html > >>I collect pictures of disgusting wiring. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rdbz4ayuw0w60ch1f4dot/h?rlkey=k14c22nkj1leclay7itlpk28z&dl=0
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
lørdag den 16. september 2023 kl. 13.19.58 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:51:56 +0100, Martin Brown > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > >On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote: > >> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote: > >>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone > >>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as > >>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. > >> > >> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)? > >> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the > >> subscriber's premises? > > > >Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel > >underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles > >inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic > >"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange. > > > >Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes > >it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to > >work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires! > >> > >> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair > >> that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain > >> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman > >> can get around to actually checking the line, in person. > > > >That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter > >and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition > >tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which > >makes it very noisy and can break conductors. > > > >> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a > >> "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is > >> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises > >> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can > >> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility > >> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test. > > > >That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so > >you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are > >supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is > >"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper > >cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different > >pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office. > > > >Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a > >Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top. > > > >>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to > >>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they > >>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with > >>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies > >>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave > >>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it. > >> > >> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable > >> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to > >> the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance > >> to present. > > > >It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or > >rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and > >any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else. > > > >It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS > >engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs. > > > >I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration > >(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't > >too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of > >multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole. > > > >https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/ > > > >>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to > >>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems > >>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. > >> > >> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the > >> AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service > >> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to > >> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar > >> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters > >> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!). > >> > >> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles, > >> accessing that from the underside. > > > >Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation > >(and they are now moving into my area of the UK). > > > >https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html > > > >> > I collect pictures of disgusting wiring. > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rdbz4ayuw0w60ch1f4dot/h?rlkey=k14c22nkj1leclay7itlpk28z&dl=0looks like artwork made by craftsmen compared to the stuff you see from India
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 04:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>l�rdag den 16. september 2023 kl. 13.19.58 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin: >> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:51:56 +0100, Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote: >> >> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >> >>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone >> >>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as >> >>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. >> >> >> >> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)? >> >> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the >> >> subscriber's premises? >> > >> >Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel >> >underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles >> >inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic >> >"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange. >> > >> >Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes >> >it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to >> >work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires! >> >> >> >> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair >> >> that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain >> >> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman >> >> can get around to actually checking the line, in person. >> > >> >That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter >> >and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition >> >tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which >> >makes it very noisy and can break conductors. >> > >> >> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a >> >> "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is >> >> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises >> >> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can >> >> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility >> >> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test. >> > >> >That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so >> >you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are >> >supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is >> >"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper >> >cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different >> >pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office. >> > >> >Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a >> >Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top. >> > >> >>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to >> >>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they >> >>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with >> >>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies >> >>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave >> >>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it. >> >> >> >> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable >> >> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to >> >> the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance >> >> to present. >> > >> >It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or >> >rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and >> >any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else. >> > >> >It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS >> >engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs. >> > >> >I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration >> >(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't >> >too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of >> >multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole. >> > >> >https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/ >> > >> >>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to >> >>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems >> >>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. >> >> >> >> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the >> >> AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service >> >> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to >> >> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar >> >> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters >> >> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!). >> >> >> >> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles, >> >> accessing that from the underside. >> > >> >Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation >> >(and they are now moving into my area of the UK). >> > >> >https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html >> > >> >> >> I collect pictures of disgusting wiring. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rdbz4ayuw0w60ch1f4dot/h?rlkey=k14c22nkj1leclay7itlpk28z&dl=0 > >looks like artwork made by craftsmen compared to the stuff you see from IndiaSan Francico has stunning views that are usually ruined by hideous wiring. It's being undergrounded, which should be mostly done in a couple of hundred years.
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On 15/09/2023 15:55, Ricky wrote:> On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 6:13:24 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown > wrote: >> On 14/09/2023 11:02, Ricky wrote: >>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:35:14 AM UTC-4, Martin >>> Brown wrote: >>>> On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown >>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we >>>>>>> signed up for, same price. The backbone fibers must be >>>>>>> moving petabits. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the >>>>>> UK they invariably try to extract extra money out of you >>>>>> for such speed upgrades which means a lot of people are >>>>>> still on rather slow legacy speeds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant >>>>>> or ever increasing amounts of money from you by increasing >>>>>> mobile data. >>>>> >>>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep >>>>> up with competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or >>>>> a couple sources for Gbit fiber. >>>> That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them >>>> to extract at least some additional income for increasing your >>>> speed. UK telcos are considerably more mercenary about >>>> upgrading their customers. >>> >>> That's one of the strangest comments I've heard anyone make... >>> even here. >>> >>> Competition is the core of capitalism. If they are upgrading the >>> neighborhood, it may well be they simply don't have the slower >>> speed anymore, or that they've changed their rate structure so >>> that the higher speed is the same price as the old lower speed.>> Competition might be, but if the provider can get more money for >> shareholders by selling the upgrade to their customers they will do >> so. It is very anti-capitalist to give something away for nowt! > > Exactly, "IF" is the magic word. But you don't seem to understand > what I'm saying, so I won't bother you with it further.It is quite simple they offer the upgrade to their customers *for an incremental price* rather than just giving it away. That is how it always works in the UK which is why plenty are stuck on lower speeds than the local lines can support. Leaving the customers where they are is a valid option - most punters have no idea what speed they are actually getting. So long as it will stream a couple of HD channels they mostly don't care. Gamers are a bit more fussy since they like bandwidth and low latency.>> In the UK if you aren't talking to customer retention at least >> every couple of years you will be ripped off. That applies to >> utilities, mobile phone, internet and insurance. There is a big >> penalty in the UK for being loyal to your supplier since they like >> to price gouge. (most people don't seem to notice either) > > Perhaps you could read what I wrote and make more effort to > understand it. If you continue to focus on your own thoughts, you > can't learn anything new.You seem incapable of reading or understanding what I wrote. The sales pitch is simple enough. Give us an extra $1/$2 a month and you can have 2x/5x the speed you have at the moment. Otherwise they get nothing more until they either ask for it or threaten to leave for a competitor. Normal SOP for skinners and trappers in sales speak.>>> Maybe for new installations, but this is an area where the rule >>> applies, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". The POTS home >>> connection works very well once in place. Even if they install >>> fiber, they don't remove all the POTS wiring.>> How odd! The reason for installing fibre in my village is >> precisely because the corroding copper is on its last legs and I >> had about the only good for 5Mbps copper line pair on the exchange. >> They couldn't take it off me quickly enough once my fibre line was >> operational. > > Sorry, by "copper", do you mean POTS? If you have significant > corrosion in copper lines, there's something very wrong with that.Yes copper = POTS (with ADSL2 or VDSL). The lines are over 60 years old in my area and spend a lot of time with alkaline ground water getting into joints. Most but not quite all failures are in the junction boxes. Overhead lines sometimes die from tree damage or stress cracking.> The POTS to my house was installed around 80 years ago and has never > failed from corrosion. I've never heard of a POTS line failing from > corrosion. Maybe this is something unique to the UK. Do they mix in > other elements into your copper wires?Not commonly. But groundwater has enough dissolved salts to corrode copper quite comprehensively. The main problem is that the cables are rather brittle with age.>> I'm on transitional drop cabling which is a figure of 8 profile >> with the fibre on one half and a copper line pair on the other. In >> the air it has a distinctive whirlygig appearance so you can tell >> at a glance who has fibre. The copper line pair is not even >> terminated just cropped off. >> >> There is a waiting list for copper circuits! They had already >> DACS'd all the copper lines not used for internet connections a >> long time ago. They tend to break one copper circuit for every >> three they try to mend. > > Wow! That's some bad copper. Someone should investigate this. ItSome of it is very old and combines the worst of underground and overhead so that damage by trees and rodents/water ingress are common. They are in the process of junking the UK copper circuits entirely - that is the whole point of the fibre roll out. Officially due to be completed in 2025 (it has no chance at all of happening like that).> may be something like the massive installation in the UK of foil > wrapped power lines where the foil was used as one of the conductors. > It was aluminum and corroded over a few years, requiring massive > replacements. Or am I getting a detail wrong on that? Sounds very > similar to me.There were some telco installations of twisted pair aluminium into systems that were mostly copper and that is disastrous for ADSL. The oxide layer of the aluminium partially rectifies the RF and the dissimilar metals cause fast corrosion if they get slightly damp. BT doesn't even admit to these really bad circuits existing. A neighbouring village has this problem - peer to peer microwave links for internet have pretty much taken over that area completely now. AFAIK new power distribution is now almost entirely aluminium but it is on a plaited 3 or 4 core insulated cable with a steel hawser down the core at least for the low tension household service. Some of our mains is on bare conductors, the old rubberised copper long since having perished and dropped off. Domestic mains voltages are vertical on the pole so it would arc and spark in the wet as pieces of wet insulation flapped about in the breeze sometimes touching another phase or neutral.>>>> This is causing a lot of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out >>>> "Digital Voice" over an unwilling population of mostly elderly >>>> people who depend on features of copper based POTS for living >>>> independently. Notably that POTS phones still work if the >>>> mains fails and various alarms and care on call services will >>>> only work correctly with a true copper physical line. >>> >>> Yeah, a friend moved into a retirement community some years ago >>> and they use fiber to the home, but he's actually has voice with >>> his cable service. No 911 location info and when power goes out, >>> so does the phone. I gave him a UPS for his cable box, and a >>> non-powered phone plugged directly into the unit. So, as long as >>> the rest of the cable system works, he can get a call out. But, >>> they've also given him an emergency alert unit that is supposed >>> to work in a power failure. I just don't know who it summons. >> It has become a bit of a mess. They can't source enough batteries >> for the old people they are trying to upgrade and have left >> vulnerable people with no phone for way too long. If they had >> standardised the optical receiver and router to take power from USB >> C it would be easier but as it is they each require their own >> random choice of voltage and connector (and two mains sockets >> nearby to power them)! > > So, on top of everything else, the UK has a battery shortage???Pretty much true. Now that we are outside the EU it will be impossible to manufacture EVs for sale into the EU because the high value batteries will come from China (outside the EU). There is no way that UK made cars can avoid a massive import tariff into the EU (not enough EU content). We don't have any significant battery manufacturing capability at all :(> Jeez. I can see why there is so much resistance to EVs in the UK.The right sort of dedicated battery for the fibre modem and router. If only they had made them USB C so that any old powerbank would do it. -- Martin Brown
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On 9/16/2023 3:51 AM, Martin Brown wrote:> On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote: >> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone lines >>> generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in flooding). >>> Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. >> >> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)? >> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the >> subscriber's premises? > > Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel underground > from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles inside the village. We.. *to* the village? Are there so few subscribers there that the CO isn't located *in* the village? ("village" has different connotations, depending on where it is used, here; some villages are the size of towns; some towns the size of villages) We're about 250 sq miles (city limits; metro area considerably larger but served by several municipalities) so there are many COs within our borders: <https://www.thecentraloffice.com/AZ/TUSmetro.htm> Most COs (in the places I've lived) have lines coming into a room in the basement, then up to a "wiring room" where all of the pairs are laid out (on punchdown blocks?). When/if they ever surface, I've never directly observed. And, nowadays, you don't know if they haven't run fiber out to a remote concentrator...> are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic "Exchange Only" lines with no > cabinet between us and the exchange.So, any line repair/reconfiguration is done AT the CO? There's a large (20 sq ft) wiring cabinet at the entrance to our subdivisions that terminates all of the pairs from the CO *to* the pairs feeding the subscribers. There is ALWAYS a telco service vehicle parked nearby "fixing" something (I'm guessing 200 homes in the subdivision?)> Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes it > difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to work on > their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!Hmmm... the places I've lived with overhead wiring have usually had the high tension wires at the top of the poles (imagine a T) with cable and phone down much lower -- like halfway. They transit to the home over separate paths so even if you had to access the cable at the house, there would be sufficient clearance from the mains feed.>> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair >> that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain >> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman >> can get around to actually checking the line, in person. > > That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter and the > groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive.Ours is classified as "slightly to very strong alkaline" with a pervasive layer of calcium carbonate some 6-12 inches below the surface. The soil temperature is relatively high (70-80F) tracking our average air temperature (~75F) As the "main cable" surfaces every 2 houses, there are lots of opportunities for water to wick down into the cable as the pedestals aren't well sealed/maintained. The advent of cell phone technology took a lot of pressure off of POTS; folks could just discard their pairs, making them available for the next house up or down the street.> In addition tree branches can > strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which makes it very noisy and > can break conductors. > >> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a >> "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is >> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises >> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can >> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility >> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test. > > That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so you can > isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket.I think this has been retrofitted to all subscribers. I know the home I grew up in had a terminal block (spark arrestor?) in the basement that allowed the house wiring to be disconnected from the service. But, now see that it has a TNI (different names for the same functionality) "box" located outside. [The CATV company uses a similar approach -- a feed to the home's "access port" from a nearby pedestal that taps into the main cable]> You are supposed to do > this before reporting a fault.Yes, and because a RJ11 *jack* is presented, you can carry a station set out to the TNI and connect to the network directly to convince yourself that the problem lies with the provider (or in the home). But, most folks aren't very savvy in that regard. Different styles exist but this is typical: <http://www.whoopis.com/howtos/telco-basics/demarc-big.jpg> the left side (in this exemplar) is normally inaccessible to the subscriber (oddball screw used for closure). Note presence of two lines.> My master POTS socket is "conveniently" located > at the far end of the loft where the old copper cable enters the house. The new > fibre install comes from a different pole and has a splice box at ground level > with a fibre up to my office. > > Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a Bakelite > soap bar shaped cover over the top.This is what it was like in my original home (basement): <https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/normal_DSC01087.JPG>>>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last 5 or >>> 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they protect wet >>> wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with hybrid copper >>> meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies ADSL. So bad that >>> some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave has been claiming these >>> dead zones for some time - farmers need it. >> >> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable >> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to >> the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance >> to present. > > It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or rodents > chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and any disturbance > from working on a fault tends to break something else.Exactly. On one occasion, the lineman was "fixing" the neighbor's service -- and broke ours in the process. I walked outside to tell him of his error... and he suggested I call for service. I did. Telling the TPC lineman that came that the subcontracted lineman had done the damage and walked away! (hopefully, some note is made of the fact as he now "cost" TPC for a call)> It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS engineers > from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs. > > I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration (it is > quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't too > dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of > multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole. > > https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/Here, the crimp connections would happen on punchdown (66/110) blocks. The pedestal wiring is less disciplined; I have no idea how they keep track of which pairs they split off of the main cable at each pedestal! (and wonder if there is ANY documentation of this??) I installed a set of blocks to terminate the (~30) telco drops run throughout the house. In hindsight, I should have just installed another switch!>>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide >>> their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems on radio >>> telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. >> >> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the >> AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service >> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to >> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar >> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters >> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!). >> >> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles, >> accessing that from the underside. > > Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation (and > they are now moving into my area of the UK). > > https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.htmlI'm sure they see YOU as the encroaching entity! :> Folks regularly complain about the coyotes, mountain lions, javelina, bears, rattlesnakes, etc. encroaching into the developed areas of town... forgetting that they weren't always "developed"!
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On 9/16/2023 8:17 AM, Martin Brown wrote:> Not commonly. But groundwater has enough dissolved salts to corrode copper > quite comprehensively.Yes. We have to periodically do "deep waterings" of our plantings to flush the salts down below the main root level in the soil (all of our municipal water is ground sourced and is notorious for the havoc it wreaks on copper plumbing!)> The right sort of dedicated battery for the fibre modem and router.Does it not have provisions, internally? Many cable modems, here, have dedicated internal (rechargeable) batteries to keep the VoIP service "up" during outages.> If only they had made them USB C so that any old powerbank would do it.
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On 16/09/2023 16:40, Don Y wrote:> On 9/16/2023 8:17 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >> >> The right sort of dedicated battery for the fibre modem and router. > > Does it not have provisions, internally? Many cable modems, > here, have dedicated internal (rechargeable) batteries to > keep the VoIP service "up" during outages.Sadly no. It requires two different bespoke external supplies - one for the optical modem and one for the router. Different voltages and connectors required on each one. No reason I can see why that has to be so. The official ones are rather poor too a whole ~1 hours operation... https://www.businessdirect.bt.com/products/cyberpower-back-up-for-bt-digital-voice-service--fttp--097284-FV55.html And for it to work you must have exactly the right version hardware! The last big power cut in bad weather lasted 2 days...>> If only they had made them USB C so that any old powerbank would do it.-- Martin Brown
Reply by ●September 16, 20232023-09-16
On 9/16/2023 9:31 AM, Martin Brown wrote:> On 16/09/2023 16:40, Don Y wrote: >> On 9/16/2023 8:17 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >>> >>> The right sort of dedicated battery for the fibre modem and router. >> >> Does it not have provisions, internally? Many cable modems, >> here, have dedicated internal (rechargeable) batteries to >> keep the VoIP service "up" during outages. > > Sadly no. It requires two different bespoke external supplies - one for the > optical modem and one for the router. Different voltages and connectors > required on each one. No reason I can see why that has to be so. The official > ones are rather poor too a whole ~1 hours operation...And folks make fun of SOFTWARE! <rolls eyes>> https://www.businessdirect.bt.com/products/cyberpower-back-up-for-bt-digital-voice-service--fttp--097284-FV55.html > > And for it to work you must have exactly the right version hardware!Because the unit TIES INTO the router (instead of just backing up the mains)?> The last big power cut in bad weather lasted 2 days...So, it's up to the end user to "fix" what is now THEIR problem... It claims to deliver (just) 24W. And, with a ~80WHr battery, that seems like <4 hours at full load (at 100% efficiency). Does the router draw considerably LESS than 24W? I can keep *this* computer, the router and the microwave modem running for about 5 hours on a UPS. Of course, in a prolonged outage, I would switch to a laptop and likely remove the router completely (play fast and loose). But, 2 days is a long time to try to support *anything*. [Our outages have always been due to equipment failure (buried cables well beyond their service life) but never more than 4 hours. Neighbors always wonder how we have "lights" (having a dozen UPSs and 7W LED lights makes it relatively easy to keep the house lit! :> ]>>> If only they had made them USB C so that any old powerbank would do it.Unlike with a PC (where some transaction may be ongoing/continuous), you could proly tolerate swapping powerbanks (losing phone/internet service only for the duration of the changeover).
