On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: > >>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for, >>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits. >>> >>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they >>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades >>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds. >>> >>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever >>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data. >> >> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with >> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources >> for Gbit fiber. > >That seems very socialist.Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die. It surely makes more sense for them to>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK >telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers. > >> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted >> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast >> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet >> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam. > >I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all >digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot >of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an >unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of >copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones >still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly >services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line.The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big "long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones, with wi-fi connection at home.> >ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is >something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my >village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper). > >However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing >junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured >wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my >house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When >the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it! > >In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice >rodents do for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.
speed test
Started by ●September 12, 2023
Reply by ●September 14, 20232023-09-14
Reply by ●September 14, 20232023-09-14
On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown ><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > >>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown >>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: >> >>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for, >>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits. >>>> >>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they >>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades >>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds. >>>> >>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever >>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data. >>> >>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with >>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources >>> for Gbit fiber. >> >>That seems very socialist. > >Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die. > > > > It surely makes more sense for them to >>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK >>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers. >> >>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted >>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast >>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet >>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam. >> >>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all >>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot >>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an >>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of >>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones >>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly >>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line. > >The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I >guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big >"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones, >with wi-fi connection at home.In the Boston area, I had exactly that until recently, and for those same reasons, when the local traditional telephone company discounted all copper service and forced everybody to optical fiber a year ago. They also thought that they would just sweep in and install the new equipment in some random place, but there was not space in my basement for that, so I insisted on doing the physical install myself. They were balking until I explained that I also had cable, and so if the telco threw me out, my next call would be to their main competitor - no install needed. So they sent me the stuff, and I installed it, and added a dedicated power outlet for it to use. If the local power goes out, this stops working unless one has a backup battery, which they made quite awkward (must be a large collection of ordinary alkaline D batteries; rechargeable not available for homes, only businesses. So the fallback is cell phones, until they run out of juice.>> >>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is >>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my >>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried out.>>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing >>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured >>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my >>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When >>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it! >> >>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice >>rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be taste or smell. Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●September 14, 20232023-09-14
On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:41:39 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown >><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown >>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: >>> >>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for, >>>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits. >>>>> >>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they >>>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades >>>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds. >>>>> >>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever >>>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data. >>>> >>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with >>>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources >>>> for Gbit fiber. >>> >>>That seems very socialist. >> >>Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die. >> >> >> >> It surely makes more sense for them to >>>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK >>>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers. >>> >>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted >>>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast >>>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet >>>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam. >>> >>>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all >>>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot >>>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an >>>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of >>>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones >>>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly >>>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line. >> >>The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I >>guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big >>"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones, >>with wi-fi connection at home. > >In the Boston area, I had exactly that until recently, and for those >same reasons, when the local traditional telephone company discounted >all copper service and forced everybody to optical fiber a year ago. >They also thought that they would just sweep in and install the new >equipment in some random place, but there was not space in my basement >for that, so I insisted on doing the physical install myself. They >were balking until I explained that I also had cable, and so if the >telco threw me out, my next call would be to their main competitor - >no install needed. So they sent me the stuff, and I installed it, and >added a dedicated power outlet for it to use. > >If the local power goes out, this stops working unless one has a >backup battery, which they made quite awkward (must be a large >collection of ordinary alkaline D batteries; rechargeable not >available for homes, only businesses. So the fallback is cell phones, >until they run out of juice. > > >>> >>>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is >>>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my >>>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper). > >In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was >that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little >bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried >out. > > >>>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing >>>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured >>>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my >>>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When >>>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it! >>> >>>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice >>>rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't. > >Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd >because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be >taste or smell. > >Joe GwinnWhy would a squirrel do this? https://www.dropbox.com/s/8b8mz7ppsnypjkz/Cable_Chewed.jpg?raw=1
Reply by ●September 14, 20232023-09-14
On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 19:19:45 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:41:39 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >wrote: > >>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown >>><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown >>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for, >>>>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they >>>>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades >>>>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever >>>>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data. >>>>> >>>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with >>>>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources >>>>> for Gbit fiber. >>>> >>>>That seems very socialist. >>> >>>Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die. >>> >>> >>> >>> It surely makes more sense for them to >>>>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK >>>>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers. >>>> >>>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted >>>>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast >>>>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet >>>>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam. >>>> >>>>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all >>>>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot >>>>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an >>>>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of >>>>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones >>>>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly >>>>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line. >>> >>>The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I >>>guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big >>>"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones, >>>with wi-fi connection at home. >> >>In the Boston area, I had exactly that until recently, and for those >>same reasons, when the local traditional telephone company discounted >>all copper service and forced everybody to optical fiber a year ago. >>They also thought that they would just sweep in and install the new >>equipment in some random place, but there was not space in my basement >>for that, so I insisted on doing the physical install myself. They >>were balking until I explained that I also had cable, and so if the >>telco threw me out, my next call would be to their main competitor - >>no install needed. So they sent me the stuff, and I installed it, and >>added a dedicated power outlet for it to use. >> >>If the local power goes out, this stops working unless one has a >>backup battery, which they made quite awkward (must be a large >>collection of ordinary alkaline D batteries; rechargeable not >>available for homes, only businesses. So the fallback is cell phones, >>until they run out of juice. >> >> >>>> >>>>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is >>>>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my >>>>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper). >> >>In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was >>that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little >>bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried >>out. >> >> >>>>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing >>>>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured >>>>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my >>>>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When >>>>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it! >>>> >>>>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice >>>>rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't. >> >>Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd >>because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be >>taste or smell. >> >>Joe Gwinn > >Why would a squirrel do this? > ><https://www.dropbox.com/s/8b8mz7ppsnypjkz/Cable_Chewed.jpg?raw=1>I dunno - never could get a word out of them. But that looks to dainty for a squirrel. Looks more like mice or a rat. The automotive wires that had soy-based insulation of jackets were the first to go. All rodents like them. .<https://www.motorverso.com/which-cars-have-soy-based-wiring/> Joe Gwinn
Reply by ●September 15, 20232023-09-15
On 14/09/2023 11:02, Ricky wrote:> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:35:14 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown > wrote: >> On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown >>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: >> >>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed >>>>> up for, same price. The backbone fibers must be moving >>>>> petabits. >>>> >>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK >>>> they invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such >>>> speed upgrades which means a lot of people are still on rather >>>> slow legacy speeds. >>>> >>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or >>>> ever increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile >>>> data. >>> >>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up >>> with competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a >>> couple sources for Gbit fiber. >> That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them to >> extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. >> UK telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their >> customers. > > That's one of the strangest comments I've heard anyone make... even > here. > > Competition is the core of capitalism. If they are upgrading the > neighborhood, it may well be they simply don't have the slower speed > anymore, or that they've changed their rate structure so that the > higher speed is the same price as the old lower speed.Competition might be, but if the provider can get more money for shareholders by selling the upgrade to their customers they will do so. It is very anti-capitalist to give something away for nowt! In the UK if you aren't talking to customer retention at least every couple of years you will be ripped off. That applies to utilities, mobile phone, internet and insurance. There is a big penalty in the UK for being loyal to your supplier since they like to price gouge. (most people don't seem to notice either) Sometimes the only way to get a decent deal is to switch supplier. As a concrete example our Village Hall gets its electricity from British Gas because they were the cheapest electricity supplier when we last looked at it (there is *no* mains gas in the village!).>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone >>> twisted pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it >>> rained. Comcast threw in POTS telephone service for free when we >>> got their internet service. I unplugged the phones because all >>> the calls were spam. >> I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an >> all digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. > > Maybe for new installations, but this is an area where the rule > applies, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". The POTS home > connection works very well once in place. Even if they install > fiber, they don't remove all the POTS wiring.How odd! The reason for installing fibre in my village is precisely because the corroding copper is on its last legs and I had about the only good for 5Mbps copper line pair on the exchange. They couldn't take it off me quickly enough once my fibre line was operational. I'm on transitional drop cabling which is a figure of 8 profile with the fibre on one half and a copper line pair on the other. In the air it has a distinctive whirlygig appearance so you can tell at a glance who has fibre. The copper line pair is not even terminated just cropped off. There is a waiting list for copper circuits! They had already DACS'd all the copper lines not used for internet connections a long time ago. They tend to break one copper circuit for every three they try to mend.> >> This is causing a lot of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out >> "Digital Voice" over an unwilling population of mostly elderly >> people who depend on features of copper based POTS for living >> independently. Notably that POTS phones still work if the mains >> fails and various alarms and care on call services will only work >> correctly with a true copper physical line. > > Yeah, a friend moved into a retirement community some years ago and > they use fiber to the home, but he's actually has voice with his > cable service. No 911 location info and when power goes out, so does > the phone. I gave him a UPS for his cable box, and a non-powered > phone plugged directly into the unit. So, as long as the rest of the > cable system works, he can get a call out. But, they've also given > him an emergency alert unit that is supposed to work in a power > failure. I just don't know who it summons.It has become a bit of a mess. They can't source enough batteries for the old people they are trying to upgrade and have left vulnerable people with no phone for way too long. If they had standardised the optical receiver and router to take power from USB C it would be easier but as it is they each require their own random choice of voltage and connector (and two mains sockets nearby to power them)! -- Martin Brown
Reply by ●September 15, 20232023-09-15
On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin > <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is >>> something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my >>> village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper). > > In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was > that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little > bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried > out.We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.>>> However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing >>> junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured >>> wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my >>> house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When >>> the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it! >>> >>> In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice >>> rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't. > > Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd > because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be > taste or smell.There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen. -- Martin Brown
Reply by ●September 15, 20232023-09-15
On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 6:13:24 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:> On 14/09/2023 11:02, Ricky wrote: > > On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:35:14 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown > > wrote: > >> On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote: > >>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown > >>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote: > >> > >>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed > >>>>> up for, same price. The backbone fibers must be moving > >>>>> petabits. > >>>> > >>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK > >>>> they invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such > >>>> speed upgrades which means a lot of people are still on rather > >>>> slow legacy speeds. > >>>> > >>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or > >>>> ever increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile > >>>> data. > >>> > >>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up > >>> with competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a > >>> couple sources for Gbit fiber. > >> That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them to > >> extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. > >> UK telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their > >> customers. > > > > That's one of the strangest comments I've heard anyone make... even > > here. > > > > Competition is the core of capitalism. If they are upgrading the > > neighborhood, it may well be they simply don't have the slower speed > > anymore, or that they've changed their rate structure so that the > > higher speed is the same price as the old lower speed. > Competition might be, but if the provider can get more money for > shareholders by selling the upgrade to their customers they will do so. > It is very anti-capitalist to give something away for nowt!Exactly, "IF" is the magic word. But you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, so I won't bother you with it further.> In the UK if you aren't talking to customer retention at least every > couple of years you will be ripped off. That applies to utilities, > mobile phone, internet and insurance. There is a big penalty in the UK > for being loyal to your supplier since they like to price gouge. > (most people don't seem to notice either)Perhaps you could read what I wrote and make more effort to understand it. If you continue to focus on your own thoughts, you can't learn anything new.> Sometimes the only way to get a decent deal is to switch supplier. > > As a concrete example our Village Hall gets its electricity from British > Gas because they were the cheapest electricity supplier when we last > looked at it (there is *no* mains gas in the village!). > >>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone > >>> twisted pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it > >>> rained. Comcast threw in POTS telephone service for free when we > >>> got their internet service. I unplugged the phones because all > >>> the calls were spam. > >> I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an > >> all digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. > > > > Maybe for new installations, but this is an area where the rule > > applies, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". The POTS home > > connection works very well once in place. Even if they install > > fiber, they don't remove all the POTS wiring. > How odd! The reason for installing fibre in my village is precisely > because the corroding copper is on its last legs and I had about the > only good for 5Mbps copper line pair on the exchange. They couldn't take > it off me quickly enough once my fibre line was operational.Sorry, by "copper", do you mean POTS? If you have significant corrosion in copper lines, there's something very wrong with that. The POTS to my house was installed around 80 years ago and has never failed from corrosion. I've never heard of a POTS line failing from corrosion. Maybe this is something unique to the UK. Do they mix in other elements into your copper wires?> I'm on transitional drop cabling which is a figure of 8 profile with the > fibre on one half and a copper line pair on the other. In the air it has > a distinctive whirlygig appearance so you can tell at a glance who has > fibre. The copper line pair is not even terminated just cropped off. > > There is a waiting list for copper circuits! They had already DACS'd all > the copper lines not used for internet connections a long time ago. They > tend to break one copper circuit for every three they try to mend.Wow! That's some bad copper. Someone should investigate this. It may be something like the massive installation in the UK of foil wrapped power lines where the foil was used as one of the conductors. It was aluminum and corroded over a few years, requiring massive replacements. Or am I getting a detail wrong on that? Sounds very similar to me.> >> This is causing a lot of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out > >> "Digital Voice" over an unwilling population of mostly elderly > >> people who depend on features of copper based POTS for living > >> independently. Notably that POTS phones still work if the mains > >> fails and various alarms and care on call services will only work > >> correctly with a true copper physical line. > > > > Yeah, a friend moved into a retirement community some years ago and > > they use fiber to the home, but he's actually has voice with his > > cable service. No 911 location info and when power goes out, so does > > the phone. I gave him a UPS for his cable box, and a non-powered > > phone plugged directly into the unit. So, as long as the rest of the > > cable system works, he can get a call out. But, they've also given > > him an emergency alert unit that is supposed to work in a power > > failure. I just don't know who it summons. > It has become a bit of a mess. They can't source enough batteries for > the old people they are trying to upgrade and have left vulnerable > people with no phone for way too long. If they had standardised the > optical receiver and router to take power from USB C it would be easier > but as it is they each require their own random choice of voltage and > connector (and two mains sockets nearby to power them)!So, on top of everything else, the UK has a battery shortage??? Jeez. I can see why there is so much resistance to EVs in the UK. -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 15, 20232023-09-15
On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 6:21:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:> On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin > > <jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown > >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > >> > > >>> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is > >>> something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my > >>> village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper). > > > > In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was > > that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little > > bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried > > out. > We must surely have a lot more rain than in the USLOL You talk as if the US were the size of a city! Do you think the southwest deserts have the same rainfall as the pacific northwest? Is New England the same as Florida? The US is hugely varied.> and yet our phone > lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in > flooding).I thought you were saying how crappy your phone lines are with corrosion and general deterioration??? I'm confused.> Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help. > > They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last > 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again.I don't get that. In the US, we have junction boxes that last for many decades without any attention. Maybe the UK needs to outsource some of this?> I'm not sure how they > protect wet wires from corrosion though.The best way to protect them is to keep the junctions dry in water tight boxes. But you've already said this is beyond the state of technology in the UK.> There are places near me with > hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies > ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps.That is easily fixed by proper installation techniques. Again, perhaps the UK should outsource this if you can't get it right after how many decades??? -- Rick C. -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●September 15, 20232023-09-15
On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone lines > generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in flooding). > Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)? Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the subscriber's premises? Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman can get around to actually checking the line, in person. Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last 5 or 10 > years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they protect wet wires > from corrosion though. There are places near me with hybrid copper meets > aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies ADSL. So bad that some don't > even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave has been claiming these dead zones for > some time - farmers need it.Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance to present. (The main cable surfaces every couple of houses to allow access to the pairs in a small -- 20? circuit -- "pedestal" usually shared by two adjacent homes. These are frequently not closed properly as they sit *on* the ground and dirt often hampers re-placing the cover -- ours has a set f very large tie-wraps holding it closed... with a 1" gap on each side) <https://i.imgur.com/RlQhw7Y.jpg> <https://prod-content-care-community-cdn.sprinklr.com/d80f176d-2bd5-487b-b539-b24b3ede5ed6/IMG_20220623_200918-41f1502e-e236-4064-ae22-0aeb98bb665b-530822081.jpg> <https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fgpkus8sr6jm41.jpg> (note the premises wiring connects to INDIVIDUAL conductors that present on threaded "studs", visible on the left side of the last photo -- perhaps more visible in the second?) For these boxes to be in this state (exposed) is common. And, for them to vary throughout the neighborhood as equipment is selectively upgraded.> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide their > choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems on radio telescope > cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!). Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles, accessing that from the underside.
Reply by ●September 15, 20232023-09-15
On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:21:06 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:>On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin >> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown >>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: >>> > >>>> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is >>>> something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my >>>> village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper). >> >> In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was >> that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little >> bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried >> out. > >We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone >lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in >flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.I would assume that in both countries, cable designs suiting their local environments were chosen.>They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last >5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they >protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with >hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies >ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave >has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.I don't know of any aluminum telephone wire in the US, ever. Only copper alloys. (Power wiring is different.)>>>> However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing >>>> junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured >>>> wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my >>>> house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When >>>> the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it! >>>> >>>> In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice >>>> rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't. >> >> Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd >> because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be >> taste or smell. > >There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide >their choice of exactly what to nibble.I've heard lots of theories on why rodents like to chew on wire, but none has ever been shown to be more likely than any other, let alone proven.> We solved our problems on radio >telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.That would certainly do it. In the US, the old dry multi-pair telephone cables were pressurized with nitrogen, largely to exclude water despite flaws in the jacket. One would see the nitrogen tanks strapped to telephone poles here and there. The advent of flooded or filled cables rendered the nitrogen bottles obsolete. The filling goop is a mineral oil gelled with a mineral wax. In the old days, the twisted pairs were copper insulated with dry pulp paper (newsprint paper basically) cable sheaths were extruded lead, and the joints were soft-soldered by hand. Nowadays, the twisted pairs are insulated with low density polyethylene, and the cable jacket is heavy polyethylene, often with an aluminum shield/protector just underneath. Joe Gwinn
