On Thursday, 30 November, 2023 at 8:31:50 pm UTC+5:30, Anthony William Sloman wrote:> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 9:56:01 PM UTC+11, none albert wrote: > > In article <KIG9N.1189626$OPFb....@fx15.ams4>, > > Chris Jones <lugn...@spam.yahoo.com> wrote: > > >On 25/11/2023 4:52 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > >> On a sunny day (Fri, 24 Nov 2023 23:04:50 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <ujr35j$2fd7a$1...@dont-email.me>: > > >>> On 11/24/2023 19:22, Joe Gwinn wrote: > > >>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 15:50:43 -0800, John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com> wrote: > > >>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 23:32:35 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote: > > >>>>>> On 11/23/2023 23:13, John Larkin wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 23:04:47 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> On 11/21/2023 5:52, John Larkin wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> There's an electronics assembly joint near us that's going out of > > >>>>>>>>> business, so we poached three employees and a bunch of equipment. I've > > >>>>>>>>> always wanted a high-res xray, and I got one and the guy to run it. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/lfdot6a64pg05z2x1ejo1/h?rlkey=p8lmnoy9388d3v20qv5a8qgwf&dl=0 > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> We also got a 3D AOI board inspection machine which makes equally cool > > >>>>>>>>> images. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Really cool. How long does it take it to scan things, say that PLCC 20 part? Resolution looks impressive. > > >>>>>>>> Can you post a photo of the entire thing? > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I didn't do it, but I think the images are immediate, real-time. I think they can make movies too. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Now this is even more impressive. Are the images directly digitized? I mean CAT scanner like? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I don't know the technology. Maybe a fluorescent sceen and a camera? > > >>>>> Or some exotic sensor technology? > > >>>> > > >>>> Yes. I remembered that it was a CsI screen and an area photo sensor, but much has changed since I last thought about this, so I did some digging. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> Dentists are using video imagers and not film any more. I wonder how that sensor works. > > >>>> > > >>>> From Dentron, a Dental X-Ray Sensor manufacturer: "The Dentron Direct USB sensor offers rounded corners, smooth edges, and two sizes (size #1 for children | size #2 for adults) to optimize patient comfort while receiving a dental X-Ray. The thin, tough, and durable polyamide housing is less than 1/4" and features a CMOS imaging sensor chip, CSI Scintillator, electronic circuits, shielding foils, and polyurethane cable and shock absorbers." > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for doing the research. So it looks like they have some scintillating foil screen and a "normal" photosensor, not bad at all. > > >> > > >> 4k is a lot of dollars there is plenty on the web for creating your own xrays, for example: > > >> https://hackaday.com/2015/12/31/portable-diy-radiography/ > > >> looks like my PMT supply will work! > > >> In the old tube days the HV parallel regulator tubes in color TVs also emitted xrays > > >> an PD500 tube is all you need: > > >> http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv-old/xray/tech/PD500/ > > >> I still have some scintillator screen, plenty of cameras. > > >> Maybe one day > > >> I know about one guy at work who got xray burns working on a color TV with the protection screen around the HV tube removed. > > >> After that firebrigade came and tested all color monitors in the studios for radiation. > > >> > > > > > >If you wish to re-purpose a valve/tube that was not intended as an x-ray tube, instead of a PD500 etc. it is better to use a 6BC-1 because it produces a focussed electron beam that makes a small spot on the anode - though it cannot handle very high voltage and also the anode melts easily unless extremely low beam current is used (which is sensible anyway): > > >See: > > >https://danyk.cz/rtg2_en.html > > > > > >See also the text on: > > >https://web.archive.org/web/20101124095650/http://fineartradiography.com/hobbies/x-ray/6vs1.html > > >I believe this fellow was selling these tubes along with fluorescent screens and image intensifiers, until he received a visit from the authorities and the website was disappeared. > > > > Real X-ray generating tubes use a rotation Wolfram target. > Some do. Wolfram is Dutch/German. In english we say tungsten. > > If you want serious X-rays, use a synchrotron and a magnetic beam wiggler or unduator. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undulator > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggler_(synchrotron) > > I came upon this in the 80's with Philips Tomoscan machines. They could regulate the voltage to generate X-rays of different color. We were in the process of convincing the bean counters that this potentially could be a great diagnostic tool, then all contractors were sacked. > Perhaps because they realised that you didn't know as much as you needed to. > > -- > Bill Sloman, Sydney > -Any support on small assemblies , i can do , kindly include me in your needs. Thanks Babu Ramabadhran
new x-ray machine
Started by ●November 20, 2023
Reply by ●November 30, 20232023-11-30
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
On 30/11/2023 2:37 am, John Larkin wrote:> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 00:07:52 +1100, Chris Jones > <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On 25/11/2023 4:52 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Fri, 24 Nov 2023 23:04:50 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >>> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <ujr35j$2fd7a$1@dont-email.me>: >>> >>>> On 11/24/2023 19:22, Joe Gwinn wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 15:50:43 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 23:32:35 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/23/2023 23:13, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 23:04:47 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/21/2023 5:52, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There's an electronics assembly joint near us that's going out of >>>>>>>>>> business, so we poached three employees and a bunch of equipment. I've >>>>>>>>>> always wanted a high-res xray, and I got one and the guy to run it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/lfdot6a64pg05z2x1ejo1/h?rlkey=p8lmnoy9388d3v20qv5a8qgwf&dl=0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We also got a 3D AOI board inspection machine which makes equally cool >>>>>>>>>> images. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Really cool. How long does it take it to scan things, say that PLCC 20 >>>>>>>>> part? Resolution looks impressive. >>>>>>>>> Can you post a photo of the entire thing? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I didn't do it, but I think the images are immediate, real-time. I >>>>>>>> think they can make movies too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now this is even more impressive. Are the images directly digitized? >>>>>>> I mean CAT scanner like? >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know the technology. Maybe a fluorescent sceen and a camera? >>>>>> Or some exotic sensor technology? >>>>> >>>>> Yes. I remembered that it was a CsI screen and an area photo sensor, >>>>> but much has changed since I last thought about this, so I did some >>>>> digging. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dentists are using video imagers and not film any more. I wonder how >>>>>> that sensor works. >>>>> >>>>> From Dentron, a Dental X-Ray Sensor manufacturer: "The Dentron Direct >>>>> USB sensor offers rounded corners, smooth edges, and two sizes (size >>>>> #1 for children | size #2 for adults) to optimize patient comfort >>>>> while receiving a dental X-Ray. The thin, tough, and durable >>>>> polyamide housing is less than 1/4" and features a CMOS imaging sensor >>>>> chip, CSI Scintillator, electronic circuits, shielding foils, and >>>>> polyurethane cable and shock absorbers." >>>> >>>> Thanks for doing the research. So it looks like they have some >>>> scintillating foil screen and a "normal" photosensor, not bad at all. >>> >>> 4k is a lot of dollars >>> there is plenty on the web for creating your own xrays, for example: >>> https://hackaday.com/2015/12/31/portable-diy-radiography/ >>> looks like my PMT supply will work! >>> In the old tube days the HV parallel regulator tubes in color TVs also emitted xrays >>> an PD500 tube is all you need: >>> http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv-old/xray/tech/PD500/ >>> I still have some scintillator screen, plenty of cameras. >>> Maybe one day >>> I know about one guy at work who got xray burns working on a color TV with the protection screen around the HV tube removed. >>> After that firebrigade came and tested all color monitors in the studios for radiation. >>> >> >> If you wish to re-purpose a valve/tube that was not intended as an x-ray >> tube, instead of a PD500 etc. it is better to use a 6BC-1 because it >> produces a focussed electron beam that makes a small spot on the anode - >> though it cannot handle very high voltage and also the anode melts >> easily unless extremely low beam current is used (which is sensible anyway): >> See: >> https://danyk.cz/rtg2_en.html >> >> See also the text on: >> https://web.archive.org/web/20101124095650/http://fineartradiography.com/hobbies/x-ray/6vs1.html >> I believe this fellow was selling these tubes along with fluorescent >> screens and image intensifiers, until he received a visit from the >> authorities and the website was disappeared > > You can buy a dental Xray rig on bay for about $600. >That person was in the UK, where it is indeed possible to buy such things and is not stricly illegal if they are used in accordance with health and safety regulations, probably similar to where you are. I think his mistake was to advertise them. On the other hand, in Australia it is an offence to even possess one without a licence, and aside from (possibly sensible and reasonable) technical requirements, that also involves paying an annual fee, and I suspect is unlikely to be granted if you only have a residential address.Whilst it is equally illegal to use something not intended as an x-ray tube to generate x-rays, it is less likely to attract attention. Personally I cannot see much difference between possessing a cabinet x-ray machine that produces x-rays internally but does not emit measurable amounts of x-rays, and possessing a CRT television that produces x-rays internally but does not emit measurable amounts of x-rays. On the other hand I'm sure that the authorities would see these two things as different: in the first instance the x-rays are useful, so they would want their licence fee, and would ideally prefer to prevent the activity entirely. Much like EMC regulations - it is illegal to produce a radio transmitter using certain frequencies to convey information, even if the same amount of RF can legally be emitted at the same frequency as long as it is useless hash from a SMPS. They just want to make sure nobody has any fun.
Reply by ●December 1, 20232023-12-01
On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 00:33:50 +1100, Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:>On 30/11/2023 2:37 am, John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 00:07:52 +1100, Chris Jones >> <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> On 25/11/2023 4:52 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 24 Nov 2023 23:04:50 +0200) it happened Dimiter_Popoff >>>> <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in <ujr35j$2fd7a$1@dont-email.me>: >>>> >>>>> On 11/24/2023 19:22, Joe Gwinn wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 15:50:43 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 23:32:35 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/23/2023 23:13, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 23:04:47 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/21/2023 5:52, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There's an electronics assembly joint near us that's going out of >>>>>>>>>>> business, so we poached three employees and a bunch of equipment. I've >>>>>>>>>>> always wanted a high-res xray, and I got one and the guy to run it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/lfdot6a64pg05z2x1ejo1/h?rlkey=p8lmnoy9388d3v20qv5a8qgwf&dl=0 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We also got a 3D AOI board inspection machine which makes equally cool >>>>>>>>>>> images. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Really cool. How long does it take it to scan things, say that PLCC 20 >>>>>>>>>> part? Resolution looks impressive. >>>>>>>>>> Can you post a photo of the entire thing? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I didn't do it, but I think the images are immediate, real-time. I >>>>>>>>> think they can make movies too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now this is even more impressive. Are the images directly digitized? >>>>>>>> I mean CAT scanner like? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know the technology. Maybe a fluorescent sceen and a camera? >>>>>>> Or some exotic sensor technology? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes. I remembered that it was a CsI screen and an area photo sensor, >>>>>> but much has changed since I last thought about this, so I did some >>>>>> digging. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dentists are using video imagers and not film any more. I wonder how >>>>>>> that sensor works. >>>>>> >>>>>> From Dentron, a Dental X-Ray Sensor manufacturer: "The Dentron Direct >>>>>> USB sensor offers rounded corners, smooth edges, and two sizes (size >>>>>> #1 for children | size #2 for adults) to optimize patient comfort >>>>>> while receiving a dental X-Ray. The thin, tough, and durable >>>>>> polyamide housing is less than 1/4" and features a CMOS imaging sensor >>>>>> chip, CSI Scintillator, electronic circuits, shielding foils, and >>>>>> polyurethane cable and shock absorbers." >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for doing the research. So it looks like they have some >>>>> scintillating foil screen and a "normal" photosensor, not bad at all. >>>> >>>> 4k is a lot of dollars >>>> there is plenty on the web for creating your own xrays, for example: >>>> https://hackaday.com/2015/12/31/portable-diy-radiography/ >>>> looks like my PMT supply will work! >>>> In the old tube days the HV parallel regulator tubes in color TVs also emitted xrays >>>> an PD500 tube is all you need: >>>> http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv-old/xray/tech/PD500/ >>>> I still have some scintillator screen, plenty of cameras. >>>> Maybe one day >>>> I know about one guy at work who got xray burns working on a color TV with the protection screen around the HV tube removed. >>>> After that firebrigade came and tested all color monitors in the studios for radiation. >>>> >>> >>> If you wish to re-purpose a valve/tube that was not intended as an x-ray >>> tube, instead of a PD500 etc. it is better to use a 6BC-1 because it >>> produces a focussed electron beam that makes a small spot on the anode - >>> though it cannot handle very high voltage and also the anode melts >>> easily unless extremely low beam current is used (which is sensible anyway): >>> See: >>> https://danyk.cz/rtg2_en.html >>> >>> See also the text on: >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20101124095650/http://fineartradiography.com/hobbies/x-ray/6vs1.html >>> I believe this fellow was selling these tubes along with fluorescent >>> screens and image intensifiers, until he received a visit from the >>> authorities and the website was disappeared >> >> You can buy a dental Xray rig on bay for about $600. >> > >That person was in the UK, where it is indeed possible to buy such >things and is not stricly illegal if they are used in accordance with >health and safety regulations, probably similar to where you are. I >think his mistake was to advertise them. On the other hand, in Australia >it is an offence to even possess one without a licence, and aside from >(possibly sensible and reasonable) technical requirements, that also >involves paying an annual fee, and I suspect is unlikely to be granted >if you only have a residential address.Whilst it is equally illegal to >use something not intended as an x-ray tube to generate x-rays, it is >less likely to attract attention. > >Personally I cannot see much difference between possessing a cabinet >x-ray machine that produces x-rays internally but does not emit >measurable amounts of x-rays, and possessing a CRT television that >produces x-rays internally but does not emit measurable amounts of >x-rays. On the other hand I'm sure that the authorities would see these >two things as different: in the first instance the x-rays are useful, so >they would want their licence fee, and would ideally prefer to prevent >the activity entirely. > >Much like EMC regulations - it is illegal to produce a radio transmitter >using certain frequencies to convey information, even if the same amount >of RF can legally be emitted at the same frequency as long as it is >useless hash from a SMPS. They just want to make sure nobody has any fun.My British friends explained to me that CE means Can't Enforce. I like little tritium tent-pull night lights, which are sold on ebay and shipped from England. They can't be sold in the USA.
