italicization for latin /et al/ in technical writing

On 2/9/2023 6:59 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> Also, reserve italics for this instead of also using it (also) for
>> emphasis, if possible.
> 
> I edit a magazine which has a convention that the first paragraph of an
> article is in the form of an introduction or an explanation of what is
> to follow.

It's also a common practice for abstracts.

> To make that stand out as 'different' it has always been set
> in italics.  A problem arises when that paragraph contins Latin - which
> then has to be typest in 'normal' text to emphasise that it is different
> from different.

Yes.  You use the typeface (variation) to make the content "stand out"
as different.  Like resorting to lowercase in something that is
completely uppercase.

I use a constant width typeface (like Courier) for things like
"code" or to reference a variable, by name.  As such, I can
use a commonplace word (like "height") in a sentence and know
that it is intended to direct the reader to that specific
variable:  "The volume of the cylinder is directly proportional
to it's HEIGHT".

When writing typeset text, you don't have a lot of options to
convey meaning beyond the actual glyphs without resorting to
other typefaces (not just variations).  And, you always want to
limit the number of typefaces ("families") in a document lest
it appear too amateurish:
- a serif "font" for body text (easier to read)
- a san serif "font" for headings (cleaner)
- possibly a decorative font for "big caps"
You can't resort to intonation, as in spoken word.

When writing "for The Masses", you can, sometimes, justify the use
of additional decorative typefaces for specific purposes.  E.g.,
I've used a "keycap" typeface (each "character" is a keystroke
from a keyboard) as well as a "7-segment" font for special cases
to further reinforce the prose.

I'd not do that in a technical document without due cause.

> A furhther complication arises because book titles and some proper nouns
> are also set in Italics to make them stand out as 'not just part of the
> sentence'.

I've always underlined book titles; *article* titles in italics.
Bold is an option (I use for "special terms" -- click here for
details)

Writing (GOOD writing) is often far more challenging than
engineering.  A produc can misbehave or be nonintuitive and
that gets written off as "a shitty design/implementation".
But, the sole purpose of writing is to coney meaning.  So,
there's no room for slop.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> - a serif "font" for body text (easier to read)
> - a san serif "font" for headings (cleaner)
> - possibly a decorative font for "big caps"

When I took over editorship of the magazine, it was using a Roman font
for headings and San-serif for body text.  I reversed this for the
reasons you have given above.  Also, 'Times' is more legible at smaller
point sizes than any other font I have found, so that is the preferred
Roman body font for long articles on small page sizes.

For body text that is a long quote (such as from a document or book) I
use 'New York', another Roman font, but at 95% character width and with
slightly inset margins.  It fits in with the general appearance but is
quite clearly a different block of text from the ordinary body of the
article.

I very very rarely use text boxes to expand on a particular concept.
Often a diagram is needed for the explanation, so I put the necessary
text into a caption with the drawing.  Just occasionally I use 'bastard
setting' around a picture (I'm sorry, I don't know what the American
equivalent is for this terminology).  Used sparingly it gives the layout
a professional feel and I have always had favourable comments about it
from readers.

[...]
> > A furhther complication arises because book titles and some proper nouns
> > are also set in Italics to make them stand out as 'not just part of the
> > sentence'.
> 
> I've always underlined book titles; *article* titles in italics.

My deputy editor and proof-reader has a very strong aversion to
underlining; it probably works well in technical articles, but isn't
really suitable for more general-interest magazine text.


> Writing (GOOD writing) is often far more challenging than
> engineering.  A produc can misbehave or be nonintuitive and
> that gets written off as "a shitty design/implementation".
> But, the sole purpose of writing is to coney meaning.  So,
> there's no room for slop.

Sod's Law:    "is to coney meaning" has a typo.    :-)


-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 2/9/2023 1:35 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> - a serif "font" for body text (easier to read)
>> - a san serif "font" for headings (cleaner)
>> - possibly a decorative font for "big caps"
> 
> When I took over editorship of the magazine, it was using a Roman font
> for headings and San-serif for body text.  I reversed this for the
> reasons you have given above.  Also, 'Times' is more legible at smaller
> point sizes than any other font I have found, so that is the preferred
> Roman body font for long articles on small page sizes.

"Newcomers" often don't understand HOW people read.  E.g., I try to leave
body text "ragged right" whereas a newcomer, delighted with the ability of
the tools to pad line widths would leave them squared off on both sides.

Or, a single wide column vs multiple narrow columns (that make
it easier for the reader to relocate the start of the NEXT line.

[Braille readers typically leave their left hand marking the start
of the next row of cells -- advancing it as soon as their right
"reading hand" has left the margin -- for the same reason.  Other
folks read "two-handed"]

I have to be careful of typeface selections when reproducing content
that may not be strictly textual.  E.g., 0l vs. 01 can be indistinguishable
in some typefaces.  But, are very different, conceptually.  An *observant*
reader can often resolve the ambiguity but that requires an extra
mental processing step... your reading engine has to idle while
other faculties are brought to bear to resolve it.

[It also carries over to writing code; avoiding 5 vs. S, 8 vs. B,
0 vs. O, etc. just makes things *so* much easier to breeze through!]

> For body text that is a long quote (such as from a document or book) I
> use 'New York', another Roman font, but at 95% character width and with
> slightly inset margins.  It fits in with the general appearance but is
> quite clearly a different block of text from the ordinary body of the
> article.

Yes.  With paragraph tags, you can do this automagically.
I often use a similar layout for inserting bulleted lists
so they stand out with a bit more emphasis -- but not as
much as a table or figure might.

> I very very rarely use text boxes to expand on a particular concept.

Often, a text box is the equivalent of an illustration, in my
writing.  E.g., I would define a file format, informally, as a C struct
(set in a monospaced Courier) as it packs more information in it than
would otherwise be possible limiting the explanation to prose.

Good tools will let you define different "flows" so you can paste
a lengthy bit of text into multiple boxes that span page breaks.

> Often a diagram is needed for the explanation, so I put the necessary
> text into a caption with the drawing.

An illustration often needs callouts to identify salient parts
within the drawing.  These can usually be laid *on* the drawing
along with "arrows" connecting them to the points of interest.

I often have a photo and want to highlight a particular portion
of the photo ("detail").  I will insert another *graphic* "frame"
onto the illustration and paste the same photo into it (!).
Then, pan that copy of the photo to center the detail in the
frame and adjust the scale to magnify the detail of interest
to fill the frame.  A circle in the overlayed photo (with "rays"
leading out to the inset) draws attention to the portion that is
being magnified in the inset.

> Just occasionally I use 'bastard
> setting' around a picture (I'm sorry, I don't know what the American
> equivalent is for this terminology).

"Flow around frame" is how FM deals with it.  You can also let it flow
*under* the frame (useful for placing a frame that says "DO NOT COPY"
or "DRAFT" atop the body text)

> Used sparingly it gives the layout
> a professional feel and I have always had favourable comments about it
> from readers.

Often encountered with large "drop caps" at the start of a paragraph.
More commonly found in promotional materials where you want the layout to
have a more "artsy" feel.  Again, audience.

>>> A furhther complication arises because book titles and some proper nouns
>>> are also set in Italics to make them stand out as 'not just part of the
>>> sentence'.
>>
>> I've always underlined book titles; *article* titles in italics.
> 
> My deputy editor and proof-reader has a very strong aversion to
> underlining; it probably works well in technical articles, but isn't
> really suitable for more general-interest magazine text.

Again, I was taught that for book titles so "who am I to argue"?
I tend to have a tougher time applying capitalization rules to
the words *in* titles, though.  I am perpetually editing the tags in
my music files in an attempt to try to keep them consistent.
"This Title Should Not Be Uniformly Capitalized"

Another problem is the placement of punctuation within quoted
content.  "Like this."  Or, "like this".

>> Writing (GOOD writing) is often far more challenging than
>> engineering.  A produc can misbehave or be nonintuitive and
>> that gets written off as "a shitty design/implementation".
>> But, the sole purpose of writing is to coney meaning.  So,
>> there's no room for slop.
> 
> Sod's Law:    "is to coney meaning" has a typo.    :-)

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:01:15 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:43:02 PM UTC-5, Simon S Aysdie wrote: 
> > I was contemplating using "ad infinitum". I am not sure if I will use it. But I wondered if it should be italicized. I think I would not italicize it. 
> > 
> > 
> > https://www.enago.com/academy/should-you-italicize-latin-terms-in-scientific-writing/
> Nobody uses that kind of haughty language anymore. Modern English would use yada yada yada. 
> 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yada_yada_yada

Disdain /à la/ Bloggs.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]
> "Newcomers" often don't understand HOW people read.  E.g., I try to leave
> body text "ragged right" whereas a newcomer, delighted with the ability of
> the tools to pad line widths would leave them squared off on both sides.

I'm not sure how that helps the reader; but I've not tried it as the
magazine has always used justified text to give equal-length lines. 


> Or, a single wide column vs multiple narrow columns (that make
> it easier for the reader to relocate the start of the NEXT line.

Now that is a real problem with this magazine.  It uses A5 'portrait'
page size printed 2-up on A4 'landscape' sheets, folded and stapled.
The width of A5 'portrait' is just a bit too wide for a single column to
be comfortable because the eye has difficulty finding the start of the
next line.  Splitting it into two columns, 
minus the width of the page
gutter and the column
gutter,  leaves almost no
space for the text,
so the lnes become
too short and making 
sense of long 
sentences becomes 
very difficult.

On the centre page spread , which covers A4 width with no central
gutter,  I have sometimes used three columns, which looks about right,
but I prefer to reserve this special page for large pictures which
benefit from being reproduced at full size (albeit with a couple of
staples showing through).

[...]
> Good tools will let you define different "flows" so you can paste
> a lengthy bit of text into multiple boxes that span page breaks.
>
I lay it up in PageMaker 6.5, which has every tool imaginable and is an
absolute pig to use.  Some of the most commonly used commands, like
switching between text and layout tools ought to have keyboard shortcuts
- but if they have, there is nothing in the manual about them and I
haven't found them in 20 years of struggling with the program.

The conventional keyboard shortcuts for Bold, Italic etc. don't work,
they bring up unwanted 'features' that would be best relegated to the
depths of some obscure and little-used branch of a menu tree.  The only
thing in its favour is that I've seen others that are worse.


> I often have a photo and want to highlight a particular portion
> of the photo ("detail").  I will insert another *graphic* "frame"
> onto the illustration and paste the same photo into it (!).
> Then, pan that copy of the photo to center the detail in the
> frame and adjust the scale to magnify the detail of interest
> to fill the frame.  A circle in the overlayed photo (with "rays"
> leading out to the inset) draws attention to the portion that is
> being magnified in the inset.

That is where I find the old Mac system (OS 8.6) scores.  The 'native'
interchange format is PICT, which handles all sorts of other formats
without losses.  I can dump a JPEG or a spreadsheet or text into the
drawing section of Claris Works and add any geometric shapes and text I
want, then export that as a PICT into Photoshop to generate the EPS
format that works best in PageMaker.  A lot of the diagrams and drawings
in the magazine are originated in Claris Works at double size or bigger,
they then give crisp images when reduced to a size that fits the
magazine page.


> > Just occasionally I use 'bastard
> > setting' ...
[...]
> Often encountered with large "drop caps" at the start of a paragraph.
> More commonly found in promotional materials where you want the layout to
> have a more "artsy" feel.  Again, audience.

That's a little too artsy for our magazine, which is hovering between a
newsletter and a proper journal.
 <http://www.coalcanal.org/wh/2w-images/85-Screen-readable.pdf>


-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 2/10/2023 4:53 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> "Newcomers" often don't understand HOW people read.  E.g., I try to leave
>> body text "ragged right" whereas a newcomer, delighted with the ability of
>> the tools to pad line widths would leave them squared off on both sides.
> 
> I'm not sure how that helps the reader; but I've not tried it as the
> magazine has always used justified text to give equal-length lines.

For anything "of length", "justified" is often better.  But, for
short "things" (even within a larger work), ragged right has
value.  You'd not set a haiku, justified.  <grin>  And, for short
line lengths, justified often leads to uncomfortably large gaps
between words as there's often nt enough space for the *next*
word without perpetually resorting to hyphenation (which is tedious
to read).

>> Or, a single wide column vs multiple narrow columns (that make
>> it easier for the reader to relocate the start of the NEXT line.
> 
> Now that is a real problem with this magazine.  It uses A5 'portrait'
> page size printed 2-up on A4 'landscape' sheets, folded and stapled.
> The width of A5 'portrait' is just a bit too wide for a single column to
> be comfortable because the eye has difficulty finding the start of the
> next line.  Splitting it into two columns,
> minus the width of the page
> gutter and the column
> gutter,  leaves almost no
> space for the text,
> so the lnes become
> too short and making
> sense of long
> sentences becomes
> very difficult.

You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin.
This is the format that I prefer for technical documents.
The column is wide enough that it can support a meaningful
table or illustration (narrower columns means such an insert
often has to bridge multiple columns to have enough elbow room).
Yet, the line length isn't *too* long to make following from one
line to the next difficult.

I use the outer margin for "side headings"... little phrases
that direct the reader to specific paragraphs without being
as formal as real headings/subheadings.  Or, to highlight some
particularly significant issue that a reader may want to
locate, at a later date (E.g., leap second handling).

In a pinch, I'll let a really wide table or illustration intrude
on the outer margin where it seems visually appropriate.

Whitespace is A Good Thing.

[However, if whitespace within body text starts to look very
"regular" -- resembling unintentional gutters running vertically
through the body text -- it's best to break that up.  But, that
almost always requires rewriting stuff to coax the spaces elsewhere.]

> On the centre page spread , which covers A4 width with no central
> gutter,  I have sometimes used three columns, which looks about right,
> but I prefer to reserve this special page for large pictures which
> benefit from being reproduced at full size (albeit with a couple of
> staples showing through).

The "wide outer margin" could be exploited to give you room for
one (or two) side heads framing the photo.

>> Good tools will let you define different "flows" so you can paste
>> a lengthy bit of text into multiple boxes that span page breaks.
>
> I lay it up in PageMaker 6.5, which has every tool imaginable and is an
> absolute pig to use.  Some of the most commonly used commands, like
> switching between text and layout tools ought to have keyboard shortcuts
> - but if they have, there is nothing in the manual about them and I
> haven't found them in 20 years of struggling with the program.

Yeah, I didn't like PageMaker.  Or Quark.  I suspect they are more geared
towards general layout.  E.g., when trying to paste up a newspaper
or advertising flyer -- lots of related items but not a single "thread"
running through the entire publication.

For my documents, I can use text boxes ("asides") to address a separate
thread that annotates/embelishes the body text and manually place it.

Other "threads" are usually separate publications.  E.g., my current project
has thousands of pages of documentation tied together into a single
document set (cross references bridging documents).  But, they are each
large enough to stand on their own -- not needing to share a page with
other "small" objects.

So, I can let FM handle the layout of content within a document
(treating it as sections and subsections, tables/prose/illustrations)
and do the "macro" layout more like volumes in an encyclopedia.

> The conventional keyboard shortcuts for Bold, Italic etc. don't work,
> they bring up unwanted 'features' that would be best relegated to the
> depths of some obscure and little-used branch of a menu tree.  The only
> thing in its favour is that I've seen others that are worse.

Be thankful you're not using an Executive and hot wax for your
pasteups!  :-/

>> I often have a photo and want to highlight a particular portion
>> of the photo ("detail").  I will insert another *graphic* "frame"
>> onto the illustration and paste the same photo into it (!).
>> Then, pan that copy of the photo to center the detail in the
>> frame and adjust the scale to magnify the detail of interest
>> to fill the frame.  A circle in the overlayed photo (with "rays"
>> leading out to the inset) draws attention to the portion that is
>> being magnified in the inset.
> 
> That is where I find the old Mac system (OS 8.6) scores.  The 'native'
> interchange format is PICT, which handles all sorts of other formats
> without losses.  I can dump a JPEG or a spreadsheet or text into the
> drawing section of Claris Works and add any geometric shapes and text I
> want, then export that as a PICT into Photoshop to generate the EPS
> format that works best in PageMaker.  A lot of the diagrams and drawings
> in the magazine are originated in Claris Works at double size or bigger,
> they then give crisp images when reduced to a size that fits the
> magazine page.

In theory, one can use MS's OLE (?) to paste objects into FM.  But, I
think that's just one more thing that MS can f*ckup for me when I
can least afford it.  So, I manually paste (or "link via reference")
objects into frames.

FM lets you layer frames on/in other frames.  So, I can create a
frame for a photo.  Then, create a frame ON that for a caption
or callout.  And, other graphic objects (circles, squares, rounded
rectangles, arrows, etc.

I find this particularly helpful when trying to paste something from
another "smart" tool that wants to do its own "autolayout" (like
Mathematica trying to annotate a graph that it has rendered).  The
text from those tools is often of a different/lesser caliber and
often placed in less than ideal locations,  So, I tell them NOT to
add any additional text and manually overlay it onto the object
in FM -- using the font that is appropriate to the document.

>>> Just occasionally I use 'bastard
>>> setting' ...
> [...]
>> Often encountered with large "drop caps" at the start of a paragraph.
>> More commonly found in promotional materials where you want the layout to
>> have a more "artsy" feel.  Again, audience.
> 
> That's a little too artsy for our magazine, which is hovering between a
> newsletter and a proper journal.
>   <http://www.coalcanal.org/wh/2w-images/85-Screen-readable.pdf>

Christ!  You need to put a warning on any publication that the user
could open and find himself facing that bright a color!!  :>
(And, how does an EXTRAORDINARY meeting differ from an ORDINARY one?)

The (critical) comments that come to mind:
- add more leading
- indent first line of paragraph *or* precede with blank line, not both
   (note typesetting of Martin's p6 article vs. Chairman's Notes)  First
   paragraph of a section (article?) shouldn't be indented.
- indent bulleted list items like the numbered list items (see p.5)
   I prefer no whitespace between items (like the numbered list) as
   I rely on whitespace to terminate the paragraph in which the list
   appears.
- widen margins of introductory italicized paragraphs to make them
   stand out more (and not just look like italicized paragraphs)
- 86 the all-caps on photo captions
- I like a line across the bottom of the page to separate the
   "bottom material" (page number, publication title) from the
   body of the document.  Similarly across the top -- for documents
   that have "top material" (yours doesn't).
- The "FOUNDATIONS..." caption on p11 sits right *on* the text beneath it.
   Contrast with the spacing between other captions and body text.
- I (eventually) sorted out the significance of the color-coding
   on p21.  Perhaps some more contrasting colors to make it more apparent?
- The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?).  Why?
- If your membership form is suitably terse, perhaps include it instead
   of a reference to where readers can *find* it (I assume people are
   lazy and would respond more favorably to something in their hands)

In general, I like the mix of text and photos.  There's enough whitespace
that it doesn't feel like you've got too much crammed in too little
space (except for the leading issue).  Nor, too little to fill the page!
It's really interesting to see how much you've put into such a small
document.  The p12-13 spread is particularly attractive.

I'm assuming this is a collaborative effort -- that each author sorted
out what to present topically and in practical terms?  Is this released
monthly (as "January 2023" suggests)?  How cooperative are your
contributors (I note the Chairman's tardiness) in delivering material
for YOUR deadlines?  (I got tired of waiting for people to meet their
commitments -- yeah, I've got "shit happening" too, yet *I* manage
to meet mine...)

Are the maps pasted "as is" or did they require augmentation?

Of course, this is just personal preferences, on my part.  Typesetting
is a bit like art -- lots of personal preferences come into play.  As
long as the audience doesn't object...

Check your mail.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]
> For anything "of length", "justified" is often better. 
[...]
> for short
> line lengths, justified often leads to uncomfortably large gaps
> between words 

That's the key to it - it all depends on the line length.  I've never
stopped to analyse it before, but you have hit the nail on the head
there.

> You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin.

We are very short of space on most issues, so every millimetre of width
is needed.

[...]
> Whitespace is A Good Thing.
Yes.  A friend, who was a properly trained printer of the old school,
gave me a thorough grounding in the use of white space - but it is a
luxury in a small magazine.

[...]
> The "wide outer margin" could be exploited to give you room for
> one (or two) side heads framing the photo.

I have done that in some editions, it all depends on the aspect ratio of
the centre-spread picture.

[...]
>I didn't like PageMaker.  Or Quark.  I suspect they are more geared
> towards general layout.  E.g., when trying to paste up a newspaper
> or advertising flyer -- lots of related items but not a single "thread"
> running through the entire publication.

PageMaker does threading but it is easy to loose the continuity when it
crashes (which it does all too frequently).  The work in progress should
be saved often and under different filenames,.so you can back-track when
it all falls apart or refuses to open.

> For my documents, I can use text boxes ("asides") to address a separate
> thread that annotates/embelishes the body text and manually place it.
> 
> Other "threads" are usually separate publications.  E.g., my current project
> has thousands of pages of documentation tied together into a single
> document set (cross references bridging documents). 

You are dealing with a very different animal there.


 
> FM lets you layer frames on/in other frames.  So, I can create a
> frame for a photo.  Then, create a frame ON that for a caption
> or callout.  And, other graphic objects (circles, squares, rounded
> rectangles, arrows, etc.

Claris Works does that easily  but PageMaker is much more restricted and
less intuitive.  Actually the whole magazine would be far easier to lay
out in Claris Works but for the fact that it doesn't allow cropping of
photographs. That's the only thing preventing me from using it.

[...]
> > That's a little too artsy for our magazine, which is hovering between a
> > newsletter and a proper journal.
> >   <http://www.coalcanal.org/wh/2w-images/85-Screen-readable.pdf>
> 
> Christ!  You need to put a warning on any publication that the user
> could open and find himself facing that bright a color!!  :>

The idea is to have each edition coloured differently, following the
spectrum, so that they appear as a rainbow on the shelf.  Originally I
wanted to use a two-colour scheme to encode the issue number, using the
resistor colour code*, but I found this was impractical for various
reasons.

[* Just to keep the thread on-topic.]

> (And, how does an EXTRAORDINARY meeting differ from an ORDINARY one?)

The ordinary one (A.G.M.) is annually at about the same date and is a
legal obligation for a Registered Charity.  The extraordinary one has
become necessary to thrash out a number of issues that have arisen
recently and must be sorted in order to present the next A.G.M. with a
considered plan to vote on.  An E.G.M. is usually a sign that a society
is in chaos.

> The (critical) comments that come to mind:
> - add more leading

This issue was particularly 'tight' ; there was a lot of accumulated
material because publication had been badly delayed (by chaos).  My
template has more leading, but I found myself reducing it in nearly
every article, just to get everything in without squeezing the pictures
down to postage stamps.

There are back issues at: < http://www.coalcanal.org/wh.php> and you
will see that some of them are a bit less cramped.  i would love to e
able to use more leading, but doing that for just one article would make
all the others look cramped.

> - indent first line of paragraph *or* precede with blank line, not both
>    (note typesetting of Martin's p6 article vs. Chairman's Notes)  First
>    paragraph of a section (article?) shouldn't be indented.
> - indent bulleted list items like the numbered list items (see p.5)
>    I prefer no whitespace between items (like the numbered list) as
>    I rely on whitespace to terminate the paragraph in which the list
>    appears.

Good points, I'll try them out and see if I like the look of them.

> - widen margins of introductory italicized paragraphs to make them
>    stand out more (and not just look like italicized paragraphs)

Lack of space, I'm afraid.  I've seen it in other publications and it
does look much better.

> - I like a line across the bottom of the page to separate the
>    "bottom material" (page number, publication title) from the
>    body of the document.  Similarly across the top -- for documents
>    that have "top material" (yours doesn't).

I do that if there are any references or footnotes, but not for the page
numbers.

The other place I use a line under an article is when it is written by
the Editor (me).  Normally I indicate the end of an article with the
author's name in block capitals and right-justified, but tradition says
the Editor does not sign his or her own articles, so the underline is
the way of indicating the end.

> - The "FOUNDATIONS..." caption on p11 sits right *on* the text beneath it.
>    Contrast with the spacing between other captions and body text.

That was a slip-up that went un-noticed.

> - I (eventually) sorted out the significance of the color-coding
>    on p21.  Perhaps some more contrasting colors to make it more apparent?

The colours were originally used for the 'Events' web-page and had to
show up well on a pale blue background.  I decided to use the same
colours in the printed publication to avoid confusion - which meant that
they weren't necessarily the optimum colours on a white page.

If you look at the corresponding pages in the back-issues, you will see
what has happened.  Originally we didn't list the Combe Hay work parties
but the leader of that group has asked us to publicise them.  This means
a huge increase in the number of events listed and, if I had stuck to
our previous format, they would have swamped all the other events and
the list wouldn't have fitted on the page.  Instead of repeating the
same information each time, I printed it once and then used colour
coding to tie it in with the chronological listing.  (The use of
superscripts,  asterisks and daggers was rejected by the deputy editor).

> - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?).  Why?

That is an inheritance from the days when this was a photocopied
paste-up.  There didn't seem to be any reason to change it (a lot of our
members are very conservative), so it has stayed in the old format.

> - If your membership form is suitably terse, perhaps include it instead
>    of a reference to where readers can *find* it (I assume people are
>    lazy and would respond more favorably to something in their hands)

Unfortunately it has to include a lot of legal information about Gift
Aid (a U.K. tax avoidance scheme for charities) and more recently a
legally-required consent section for us to store the names and addresses
of our members.  It crams in even more information than an average page
of the magazine.

> 
> In general, I like the mix of text and photos.  There's enough whitespace
> that it doesn't feel like you've got too much crammed in too little
> space (except for the leading issue).  Nor, too little to fill the page!
> It's really interesting to see how much you've put into such a small
> document.  The p12-13 spread is particularly attractive.

Thank you for that.  It is nice to know the many hours spent re-working
it have achieved the desired effect.
> 
> I'm assuming this is a collaborative effort -- that each author sorted
> out what to present topically and in practical terms?

It varies a lot.  Some authors are very good, but others send in a list
of bullet points and say "Write that up into something people will want
to read".  One article in this issue was completely 'ghost written',
based on a casual conversation, and then sent to the author with a note
saying "Is that what you would have written if you had written it?".

In one really bad case a while ago, an author sent in some accompanying
photographs that were vital to the article but were lopsided and so
lacking in contrast that it was impossible to see the important details
even with heavy Photoshopping.  I had to work out where they had been
taken and which way the camera was pointing (straight into the sun),
then drive to the location at a time when I had worked out the light
would be right and re-photograph them.  The author never spotted what I
had done.

 > Is this released
> monthly (as "January 2023" suggests)?  How cooperative are your
> contributors (I note the Chairman's tardiness) in delivering material
> for YOUR deadlines?  (I got tired of waiting for people to meet their
> commitments -- yeah, I've got "shit happening" too, yet *I* manage
> to meet mine...)

It is supposed to be quarterly, but we rarely publish more than three in
any year.  I would rather wait for good material than send out poor
quality 'fillers'.  If I stamped my foot and insisted on deadlines, I
would get nothing at all.  As it is, I finish up writing some of it
myself and re-writing many of the submissions.
>
> Are the maps pasted "as is" or did they require augmentation?

I usually draw a lot of the maps in Claris Works but the historic one on
p.19 was taken from a property ownership map.  This meant it was covered
in handwritten notes about land ownership and inheritance relating to
familes who still live in the area.  This sensitive information all had
to be Photoshopped out before I could use the map.  The 'cloning' tool
in PhotoshopLE was very useful for reinstating the features that had
been covered by the writing.

The superb map on the back page was drawn by one of our founding members
who was a professional draughtsman; sadly he has just died and the next
edition will contain an extensive obituary.
> 
> Of course, this is just personal preferences, on my part.  Typesetting
> is a bit like art -- lots of personal preferences come into play.  As
> long as the audience doesn't object...
> 
> Check your mail.

I have recived it and will reply by mail.


-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 2/10/2023 3:27 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin.
> 
> We are very short of space on most issues, so every millimetre of width
> is needed.

That was the overall impression.  Is this a consequence of trying to
manage postage costs?  Are you "entitled" to subsidized postage rates
as a "charity"?

>> FM lets you layer frames on/in other frames.  So, I can create a
>> frame for a photo.  Then, create a frame ON that for a caption
>> or callout.  And, other graphic objects (circles, squares, rounded
>> rectangles, arrows, etc.
> 
> Claris Works does that easily  but PageMaker is much more restricted and
> less intuitive.  Actually the whole magazine would be far easier to lay
> out in Claris Works but for the fact that it doesn't allow cropping of
> photographs. That's the only thing preventing me from using it.

I've never used CW so can't comment on it.  Are you *really*
cropping the photos?  Or, just "exposing them through an adjustable
window" in the document?

E.g., the inset example I described has two full copies of the
underlying photo in the document but "exposed" at different scales
and offsets.

[This is something to be wary of as some tools will actually include
the masked-off portions of the object in the document!  If you
don't want those portions to be *accessible*, you have to explicitly
crop them off before importing!]

>> (And, how does an EXTRAORDINARY meeting differ from an ORDINARY one?)
> 
> The ordinary one (A.G.M.) is annually at about the same date and is a
> legal obligation for a Registered Charity.  The extraordinary one has
> become necessary to thrash out a number of issues that have arisen
> recently and must be sorted in order to present the next A.G.M. with a
> considered plan to vote on.  An E.G.M. is usually a sign that a society
> is in chaos.

If *not* in chaos, you'd have no reason to meet?  (or, are there still
other types of "meetings")

>> - indent first line of paragraph *or* precede with blank line, not both
>>     (note typesetting of Martin's p6 article vs. Chairman's Notes)  First
>>     paragraph of a section (article?) shouldn't be indented.
>> - indent bulleted list items like the numbered list items (see p.5)
>>     I prefer no whitespace between items (like the numbered list) as
>>     I rely on whitespace to terminate the paragraph in which the list
>>     appears.
> 
> Good points, I'll try them out and see if I like the look of them.

I have a whole set of (paragraph) tags just for bulleted lists:
- indented vs. flush left
- numbered vs. bulleted
- tight leading vs. open
as combinations of each of the above.

>> - I like a line across the bottom of the page to separate the
>>     "bottom material" (page number, publication title) from the
>>     body of the document.  Similarly across the top -- for documents
>>     that have "top material" (yours doesn't).
> 
> I do that if there are any references or footnotes, but not for the page
> numbers.
> 
> The other place I use a line under an article is when it is written by
> the Editor (me).  Normally I indicate the end of an article with the
> author's name in block capitals and right-justified, but tradition says
> the Editor does not sign his or her own articles, so the underline is
> the way of indicating the end.

Ah!  I keep my name out of newsletters entirely.  Not so for technical
articles (but also omitted for manuals).

>> - The "FOUNDATIONS..." caption on p11 sits right *on* the text beneath it.
>>     Contrast with the spacing between other captions and body text.
> 
> That was a slip-up that went un-noticed.

FM requires a "frame" to be created for a photo, text insert, etc.
When creating such a frame, I allocate extra space for a "text frame"
contained within.  The text frame holds the caption -- usually with
a line separating the text from the "content".

Frames carry offsets that they impose on the preceding and following
content (text).  So, this discipline maintains spacing.

>> - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?).  Why?
> 
> That is an inheritance from the days when this was a photocopied
> paste-up.  There didn't seem to be any reason to change it (a lot of our
> members are very conservative), so it has stayed in the old format.

<frown>  OK (I guess)

>> - If your membership form is suitably terse, perhaps include it instead
>>     of a reference to where readers can *find* it (I assume people are
>>     lazy and would respond more favorably to something in their hands)
> 
> Unfortunately it has to include a lot of legal information about Gift
> Aid (a U.K. tax avoidance scheme for charities) and more recently a
> legally-required consent section for us to store the names and addresses
> of our members.  It crams in even more information than an average page
> of the magazine.

Oh.  There are tax consequences for donations to *registered*
charities, here.  But, most folks know of them and/or are not
concerned with the magnitude of their donation/dues.

Publishing names has some consequences, here (and its just
good manners not to publish someone's name/donation without
their consent).  But, I don't think there are any legal
requirements to disclose those requirements.

"Your contact information is never sold, rented or disclosed in any way!"

>> I'm assuming this is a collaborative effort -- that each author sorted
>> out what to present topically and in practical terms?
> 
> It varies a lot.  Some authors are very good, but others send in a list
> of bullet points and say "Write that up into something people will want
> to read".  One article in this issue was completely 'ghost written',
> based on a casual conversation, and then sent to the author with a note
> saying "Is that what you would have written if you had written it?".

"So, you want me to do MY job *and* YOURS?"

I had a woman who was going to do this, that and the other thing.
None of it was ever forthcoming.  So, I had to do it for her -- and
let her discover this *after* publication ("Yeah, these articles
were supposed to be written by you.  You don't recall writing them,
do you?  Yet, here they are...")

> In one really bad case a while ago, an author sent in some accompanying
> photographs that were vital to the article but were lopsided and so
> lacking in contrast that it was impossible to see the important details
> even with heavy Photoshopping.  I had to work out where they had been
> taken and which way the camera was pointing (straight into the sun),
> then drive to the location at a time when I had worked out the light
> would be right and re-photograph them.  The author never spotted what I
> had done.

More work than I'd care to take on.  I'd let others, instead, notice
"What happened to Bob's article?" -- and direct them to ask Bob!

>> Is this released
>> monthly (as "January 2023" suggests)?  How cooperative are your
>> contributors (I note the Chairman's tardiness) in delivering material
>> for YOUR deadlines?  (I got tired of waiting for people to meet their
>> commitments -- yeah, I've got "shit happening" too, yet *I* manage
>> to meet mine...)
> 
> It is supposed to be quarterly, but we rarely publish more than three in
> any year.  I would rather wait for good material than send out poor
> quality 'fillers'.  If I stamped my foot and insisted on deadlines, I
> would get nothing at all.  As it is, I finish up writing some of it
> myself and re-writing many of the submissions.

Sounds familiar.  I withdrew my efforts because of this sort of thing.
I don't mind giving *my* time.  But, for things that *I* am willing
to do and for an amount of time that I can estimate and control.

"Let's write a 5 part series on..."
"Great -- let me see it WHEN IT IS DONE!"

>> Are the maps pasted "as is" or did they require augmentation?
> 
> I usually draw a lot of the maps in Claris Works but the historic one on
> p.19 was taken from a property ownership map.  This meant it was covered
> in handwritten notes about land ownership and inheritance relating to
> familes who still live in the area.  This sensitive information all had
> to be Photoshopped out before I could use the map.  The 'cloning' tool
> in PhotoshopLE was very useful for reinstating the features that had
> been covered by the writing.

Yeah, PS is delightful for doctoring images.  I was creating icons
for my workstations, last night.  I name each network device after a
cartoon character, grouping similar devices into the same series
(e.g., workstations after The Flintstones, NASs after The Jetsons,
etc.).  So, I have to locate artwork (online) with the character(s)
of interest, in suitable poses, and then elide all the extra cruft
from the image so I am left with *just* that character.

It's tedious (trying to cut to the nearest pixel with your masking
tool) but a sort of refreshingly brain-dead activity; if you screw
up, you just hit UNDO and try again!

> The superb map on the back page was drawn by one of our founding members
> who was a professional draughtsman; sadly he has just died and the next
> edition will contain an extensive obituary.

This is all too common with volunteer/nonprofit organizations.
Young people are "too busy" (in their minds) to get involved.
So, much falls on "older folks".

By far, most of the "dead people that I know" were from these
sorts of organizations.  Here, many folks have alternate
homes "elsewhere".  So, you expect them to be gone for half
of the year.  When they don't return, you wonder if they
"lost interest" or "stopped breathing".

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 2/10/2023 3:27 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> >> You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin.
> > 
> > We are very short of space on most issues, so every millimetre of width
> > is needed.
> 
> That was the overall impression.  Is this a consequence of trying to
> manage postage costs?  Are you "entitled" to subsidized postage rates
> as a "charity"?

There are discrete steps of printing and postage costs.  A 24-page A5
booklet is all we can budget for.  There are no charity postage rates in
the UK.

I constantly badger people for articles with no result, then lots of
little items pile in shortly after the nominal deadline and we are short
of space again.  It makes for a more interesting magazine, but usually
involves several major changes of layout at short notice.

[...]
>Are you *really*
> cropping the photos?  Or, just "exposing them through an adjustable
> window" in the document?

PageMaker does it by 'windowing': the document can be moved around under
the frame to expose previously hidden portions.  Photoshop does it by
cropping, which can sometimes be a nuisance.

[...]
> If *not* in chaos, you'd have no reason to meet?  (or, are there still
> other types of "meetings")

We have regular Committee meetings to discuss the general running of the
Society, but the E.G.M. is a public event which is advertised in advance
to all members.


> I have a whole set of (paragraph) tags just for bulleted lists:
> - indented vs. flush left
> - numbered vs. bulleted
> - tight leading vs. open
> as combinations of each of the above.

I can apply those where necessary, but have a small basic set of
templates:
Body text
Intro
Quotation
Header1
Header 2
Author credit
Picture caption
Picture credit


[...]
>>tradition says
> > the Editor does not sign his or her own articles, so the underline is
> > the way of indicating the end.
> 
> Ah!  I keep my name out of newsletters entirely.  Not so for technical
> articles (but also omitted for manuals).

I am shown as the Editor in the Committee listing, but don't sign my
contributions.  When I write canal articles for other publications it is
usually anonymously or under the name of the society.  I also write
occasional technical magazine articles on a different subject under my
own name.

I have to write (and print and bind) manuals for electronic equipment I
have designed, but they just go under the name of my company.

[...]
> Frames carry offsets that they impose on the preceding and following
> content (text).  So, this discipline maintains spacing.

There is a sytem in PageMaker for doing that, but I have never managed
to understand it, so I do it manually (with the occasional slip-up, as
you spotted).

> >> - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?).  Why?
> > 
> > That is an inheritance from the days when this was a photocopied
> > paste-up.  There didn't seem to be any reason to change it (a lot of our
> > members are very conservative), so it has stayed in the old format.
> 
> <frown>  OK (I guess)

My brief, on taking over as Editor, was to change the magazine as little
as possible - the readers liked it as it was.  The first edition I
produced on a Mac was only distinguishable from the previous I.B.M.
Golf-ball paste up by the improved quality of the photographs, which no
longer required sceening.

Several editions later I managed to sort out the Roman/San-Serif muddle
without too much opposition, then settled down to keeping the format
stable.  The layout of the title page was an innovation that I stole
from a 1946 edition of Wireless World.

[...]
>There are tax consequences for donations to *registered*
> charities, here.  But, most folks know of them and/or are not
> concerned with the magnitude of their donation/dues.

We have a complicated system for recovering charity memberships and
donations from Income Tax, and there are standard legal procedures and
wording which have to be followed.

[...] 
> "Your contact information is never sold, rented or disclosed in any way!"

We now have to have a signed declaration that the person has read our
Privacy Statement and agrees to it before we are allowed to keep a note
of their name and address.  The wording is prescribed by law and the
penalties for non-compliance are hefty.

~~~~~~
SECURITY (noun):
Something which constantly interferes with legitimate  everyday actions
whilst having no effect on criminals.
~~~~~~

[...]
>> "Is that what you would have written if you had written it?".
> 
> "So, you want me to do MY job *and* YOURS?"

...and if I don't, I shall have no article to publish.


> I had a woman who was going to do this, that and the other thing.
> None of it was ever forthcoming.  So, I had to do it for her -- and
> let her discover this *after* publication ("Yeah, these articles
> were supposed to be written by you.  You don't recall writing them,
> do you?  Yet, here they are...")

I do check with the author before publishig it.
> 

[bad photograph] 
> More work than I'd care to take on.  I'd let others, instead, notice
> "What happened to Bob's article?" -- and direct them to ask Bob!

The problem is that it reflects badly on the magazine, not on the
author.

[...]
> "Let's write a 5 part series on..."
> "Great -- let me see it WHEN IT IS DONE!"

Yes, I make it a rule never to publish Part 1 until Part n. is finished.
It also makes it a lot easier to work out suitable splitting points if
you have the whole thing complete.

[...]
> > The superb map on the back page was drawn by one of our founding members
> > who was a professional draughtsman; sadly he has just died and the next
> > edition will contain an extensive obituary.
> 
> This is all too common with volunteer/nonprofit organizations.
> Young people are "too busy" (in their minds) to get involved.
> So, much falls on "older folks".

That is partly what the E.G.M. is about.  Either younger members step
forward and take on some of the load, or the remaining Committee will
collapse.

What we don't want is "I know all about websites cause I wrote one once"
(It was a template and I just filled it in.) or "I drive the forklift
truck in a publisher's warehouse so I know all about magazines" (Tho I
never done no gramur at skule).


-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 17:42:40 -0800 (PST), Simon S Aysdie
<gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 2:16:42 PM UTC-8, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 10:41:15 -0800 (PST), Simon S Aysdie 
>> <gwh...@ti.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> >On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 12:26:10 PM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote: 
>> >> On 2023-02-05 14:42, Simon S Aysdie wrote: 
>> >> > I was contemplating using "ad infinitum". I am not sure if I will use it. But I wondered if it should be italicized. I think I would not italicize it. 
>> >> > 
>> >> > 
>> >> > https://www.enago.com/academy/should-you-italicize-latin-terms-in-scientific-writing/ 
>> >> > 
>> >> I'd certainly italicize "et al." "Ad infinitum" isn't really standard 
>> >> English over here, so I'd probably italicize it if I ever used it, which 
>> >> I don't recall having done in print. 
>> >> 
>> >> And the full stop after 'et al' is super important. 'T'aint me and my 
>> >> old pal Al. 
>> > 
>> >Thank you... Just looking for opinions. My typography book frowns on overuse of emphasis. That is, if I did use it I felt as though I had to justify emphasis. I guess this is the first time I've looked it up.
>> I often use italics for a different purpose: If I have two sentences 
>> that are very similar, like sentences summarizing very similar (except 
>> for one thing) cases, I will italicize the critical word or phrase 
>> that changes between the cases, so people are drawn directly to the 
>> critical difference. instead of missing it, buried an all those words.
>
>Interesting. I don't come across that issue too much. I am not sure why. But your usage seems justified.
>
>I suppose I am conflating emphasis with font style for foreign language. The font style is the same for each.
>
>> >Writing is not my native element--I must check everything I do. It's a struggle. :)
>> 
>> Even if one is a good writer, it's still a whole lotta work to get it 
>> exactly right, with draft after draft. 
>
>"Good" to hear others share my pain. lol.
>
>If there is one thing I very much regret sandbagging in grade school, and on through high school, it is not having taken advantage of the opportunity to learn English. I have been paying for that mistake for decades. I thought it was "illogical" and "not worth my time." Wrong.
>

It is illogical to be sure, as are all natural languages.  But my
mother beat it into me anyway.

But getting the grammar et al exactly right is not usually the most
important problem.  It's getting the content and logical development
correct.

War story:  In the mid 1980s, I had a programmer who was born in
mainland China, and had escaped by swimming to Hong Kong, ending up in
the Boston, MA area.  

His conversational English was workable but very rough.  He used this
to escape writing tasks.  But tech writers don't know enough to write
for him, and the other programmers had their own writing assignments
to do.  

My solution was to have the programmer write his first draft in
Chinese if he liked, then translate it into rough English, whereupon a
tech writer would swoop in and clean his draft up.  But the programmer
was required to explain things to the writer until the writer was
satisfied - the writer was in effect representing the future audience.
Then I introduced the programmer to his newly-appointed tech-writer
shadow.  The programmer seemed startled.

They were a Mutt-and-Jeff team:  The programmer was basketball-player
tall, a Manchurian, at 6' 6" and quite thin.  The tech writer was a
5'3" male, and not so thin.

Together, they produced a very good document, one that was actually
superior to those written by programmers whose native language was
English.  Especially the ones who think that the best documentation of
the code is the code itself.

Joe Gwinn