Reply by Liz Tuddenham February 13, 20232023-02-13
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]
> > Often, the "reasons it didn't work" have to do with "personnel on hand", > at that point in the organization's history. I've had people dig in > their heels and actively work to thwart changes. "Fine, we'll wait until > you're coerced out of the group and THEN we'll implement those changes."
In our case it was often because the new volunteers didn't realise that a landowner was dead against us (or had to be handled with kid gloves) - or weren't aware of hidden historical structures that had to be preserved. On a couple of occasions it was because they were so ignorant of the basics that they thought water would oblige them by running uphill (yes, seriously ! ). We had one volunteer dig a hole in the canal bed to let a stream come up through from a culvert below. He was the landowner and we could not persuade him it wouldn't work; we just had to dam the canal further back so we didn't lose all the water and then let him go ahead and do it. That stretch of canal is still dry - but he insists that it would now be in water if only we hadn't dammed it. Some things can be altered over time, but some can't. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply by Don Y February 12, 20232023-02-12
On 2/12/2023 1:20 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: > > [...] >> ... I'm not a "joiner"; I lend my time/skills to >> groups/businesses (the latter, for pay) but don't get invested in >> their success/failure. > > I was already a member; when the previous Editor wanted to retire, I > stepped into the post.
Yes, but you'd already *joined* :> That's the step that I skip.
>>> Another one took over the post of membership secretary, converted the >>> records to a database system that she was incapable of handling and >>> incapable of exporting to someone who could sort it out. It took us a >>> year to find out who some of our more recent members were. >> >> Yes. Everything always *looks* easy -- esp to the folks criticizing >> an effort! -- until you actually HAVE to make it work. > > She thought she knew it all and bluffed her way past the chairman with a > load of technical claptrap that she had heard her boyfriend using. He > probably did know what he was doing, but she was totally out of her > depth and tried to find a way of blaming us for her failure.
Volunteer organizations are loath to refuse any offers of help. And, often don't have anyone capable (and willing AND possessing the necessary diplomatic skills!) of evaluating what the "applicant" can offer (reliably). Some local groups avoid this problem by defining roles and its a "take it or leave it" opportunity for a volunteer. E.g., the local food bank will gladly take your labor -- to pack boxes/bags with donated groceries. THEY will tell you how to do it and WHEN you will report for your service. If this doesn't suit you, feel free to offer your services elsewhere. (they never have a shortage of volunteers so can adopt this approach). The hospitals are similar in their treatment of volunteers. But, they have a PAID staff member to coordinate those efforts (it's a huge resource, worthy of their spending money to shepherd it)
> We have also had 'experts' try to persuade the Chairman to let them take > over the website - how much better they could make it for only a > moderate fee! When I read them the rules: no Javascript, no cookies, > they usually backed down. They all turned out to be > 'painting-by-numbers' merchants who just filled in templates.
Local HoA asked if I'd set up a website for them. "Sorry, I don't do HTML" :> I try to offer skills that are harder to come by and hope others will step up for the more commonplace efforts. E.g., a group that recycles equipment has lots of "unskilled" volunteers who will disassemble "scrap" items. Silly of me to spend my time doing that sort of thing. OTOH, deciding which items should be refurbished and which scrapped is a more refined skillset. So, I'll "triage" donations and let others concentrate on tearing down or rebuilding, as appropriate. Usually, you need a fair bit of experience with a group to be able to understand their process, needs, and shortages before you can sort out the best place to "spend" your efforts.
> I have tried unsuccessfully to take newcomers under my wing and train > them up, but they all want spectacular results instantly for no effort > and aren't willing to invest time learning the HTML and PHP they need to > run the website. Similarly we have had workparty members and even a > manager who thought they just needed to buy expensive machinery to do > the job - some hadn't even learned to tie a knot properly, had no idea > of basic engineering and hydraulic principles and were a disaster at > manpower management. > >> But, there's a fine line between discouraging someone from trying >> something that *didn't* work and something that *won't* work. > > If the reasons it didn't work are still in place, it won't work again - > but if things have changed, it might. We were trying to be helpful but > the collected long memories of the Committee were a bit daunting for a > newcomer still feeling their way.
Often, the "reasons it didn't work" have to do with "personnel on hand", at that point in the organization's history. I've had people dig in their heels and actively work to thwart changes. "Fine, we'll wait until you're coerced out of the group and THEN we'll implement those changes." Sadly, this is also often the case in businesses. "Long timers" who rely on "that's the way we've ALWAYS done it" as an excuse to avoid change. Move them out of the way and THEN implement the changes -- to their chagrin.
Reply by Liz Tuddenham February 12, 20232023-02-12
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]
>... I'm not a "joiner"; I lend my time/skills to > groups/businesses (the latter, for pay) but don't get invested in > their success/failure.
I was already a member; when the previous Editor wanted to retire, I stepped into the post.
> > Another one took over the post of membership secretary, converted the > > records to a database system that she was incapable of handling and > > incapable of exporting to someone who could sort it out. It took us a > > year to find out who some of our more recent members were. > > Yes. Everything always *looks* easy -- esp to the folks criticizing > an effort! -- until you actually HAVE to make it work.
She thought she knew it all and bluffed her way past the chairman with a load of technical claptrap that she had heard her boyfriend using. He probably did know what he was doing, but she was totally out of her depth and tried to find a way of blaming us for her failure. We have also had 'experts' try to persuade the Chairman to let them take over the website - how much better they could make it for only a moderate fee! When I read them the rules: no Javascript, no cookies, they usually backed down. They all turned out to be 'painting-by-numbers' merchants who just filled in templates. I have tried unsuccessfully to take newcomers under my wing and train them up, but they all want spectacular results instantly for no effort and aren't willing to invest time learning the HTML and PHP they need to run the website. Similarly we have had workparty members and even a manager who thought they just needed to buy expensive machinery to do the job - some hadn't even learned to tie a knot properly, had no idea of basic engineering and hydraulic principles and were a disaster at manpower management. [...]
> But, there's a fine line between discouraging someone from trying > something that *didn't* work and something that *won't* work.
If the reasons it didn't work are still in place, it won't work again - but if things have changed, it might. We were trying to be helpful but the collected long memories of the Committee were a bit daunting for a newcomer still feeling their way. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply by Don Y February 12, 20232023-02-12
On 2/12/2023 7:24 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> I have a different attitude on that score. *I* am not the one who >> wants a newsletter published, just the poor soul who offered to >> do the busywork. So, if *you* want a newsletter published, >> it behooves you to get your commitments met. Let someone else >> "hound" the folks who are falling short. > [...] >> "You were looking for someone tech-savvy to handle the production aspects >> of assembling the publication. I *offered* to do so -- with the understanding >> AND ASSURANCE that I would just be assembling content provided by others. >> I can predict how much of my time that will require with a high degree of >> accuracy so I am willing to take on THAT task." > > I am not doing it *for* them, I am doing it as *one of* the them, so > hounding potential cotributors is part of my job. Most of our > contributors are irregular, only writing when they have saomething to > say.
Different motivation. I'm not a "joiner"; I lend my time/skills to groups/businesses (the latter, for pay) but don't get invested in their success/failure.
>> A woman eagerly took on the task. Donations accumulated. >> And, she lost interest. Or, realized it was more work ... > > We have been bitten a couple of times. Once someone volunteered to > catalogue a lot of stuff. After months of hearing nothing we tried to > contact her and found she wasn't answering e-mails or the telephone. > > Another one took over the post of membership secretary, converted the > records to a database system that she was incapable of handling and > incapable of exporting to someone who could sort it out. It took us a > year to find out who some of our more recent members were.
Yes. Everything always *looks* easy -- esp to the folks criticizing an effort! -- until you actually HAVE to make it work. This is why I try hard to understand and define the conditions of my "service" -- do I *really* want to take on this responsibility? And, why it is relatively easy (conscience-wise) for me to withdraw that if I've been "misled" (trying to nicely say "lied to").
>> I believe a non-profit legally needs a treasurer and a secretary, >> here. But, there are no needs for president, volunteer >> coordinator, fundraising chair, event coordinator, etc. >> So, the jobs that really contribute to the success of the >> organization are left vacant. > > I think the UK requirements are for a Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer. > There is an awkward situation regarding Trustees, as the status of these > may depend on what is in the individual constitutions.
Chairman (president, executive director, etc.) is not required. Treasurer is because there is money involved and *someone* has to sign the filings with the goobermint. Likewise, someone has to record notes regarding the organization's decisions, policies, actions, etc. But, no one has to be responsible for its operation! [I know of half a dozen groups operating without "someone at the top". And, no one *wants* that position because it often means a lot of *work*!]
>> And, at each meeting, everyone wonders who'll take them on >> ("But *I* am too busy...") and fears that the organization >> will fold as a result ("How will I spend my time when these >> activities and opportunities no longer exist?") > > Our Committee has been in existance for many years and the membera all > know each other well and have a lot of background knowledge. This is > daunting for a newcomer who helpfuly suggests something, only to meet a > chorus of voices saying "We tried that in 1989 and it didn't work".
Yes, some of the nonprofits I've been affiliated with for almost 30 years. Often, *I* am the organization's "historical record"; volunteers come and go (die!), directors move on to other groups, etc. But, there's a fine line between discouraging someone from trying something that *didn't* work and something that *won't* work. Just because a previous attempt failed doesn't mean the objective can't be met. The previous attempt may have been ill-conceived. Or, the folks involved, inept. (A big problem with volunteer based groups is you don't get to select members based on abilities, like an employer recruiting QUALIFIED employees!) OTOH, letting someone spin their wheels in an effort that likely won't bear fruit is almost a surefire way to lose that person's labor offering.
Reply by Liz Tuddenham February 12, 20232023-02-12
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> I have a different attitude on that score. *I* am not the one who > wants a newsletter published, just the poor soul who offered to > do the busywork. So, if *you* want a newsletter published, > it behooves you to get your commitments met. Let someone else > "hound" the folks who are falling short.
[...]
> "You were looking for someone tech-savvy to handle the production aspects > of assembling the publication. I *offered* to do so -- with the understanding > AND ASSURANCE that I would just be assembling content provided by others. > I can predict how much of my time that will require with a high degree of > accuracy so I am willing to take on THAT task."
I am not doing it *for* them, I am doing it as *one of* the them, so hounding potential cotributors is part of my job. Most of our contributors are irregular, only writing when they have saomething to say. [...] .
> A woman eagerly took on the task. Donations accumulated. > And, she lost interest. Or, realized it was more work ...
We have been bitten a couple of times. Once someone volunteered to catalogue a lot of stuff. After months of hearing nothing we tried to contact her and found she wasn't answering e-mails or the telephone. Another one took over the post of membership secretary, converted the records to a database system that she was incapable of handling and incapable of exporting to someone who could sort it out. It took us a year to find out who some of our more recent members were.
> I believe a non-profit legally needs a treasurer and a secretary, > here. But, there are no needs for president, volunteer > coordinator, fundraising chair, event coordinator, etc. > So, the jobs that really contribute to the success of the > organization are left vacant.
I think the UK requirements are for a Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer. There is an awkward situation regarding Trustees, as the status of these may depend on what is in the individual constitutions.
> > And, at each meeting, everyone wonders who'll take them on > ("But *I* am too busy...") and fears that the organization > will fold as a result ("How will I spend my time when these > activities and opportunities no longer exist?")
Our Committee has been in existance for many years and the membera all know each other well and have a lot of background knowledge. This is daunting for a newcomer who helpfuly suggests something, only to meet a chorus of voices saying "We tried that in 1989 and it didn't work". -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply by Joe Gwinn February 11, 20232023-02-11
On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 17:42:40 -0800 (PST), Simon S Aysdie
<gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 2:16:42 PM UTC-8, Joe Gwinn wrote: >> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 10:41:15 -0800 (PST), Simon S Aysdie >> <gwh...@ti.com> wrote: >> >> >On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 12:26:10 PM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> >> On 2023-02-05 14:42, Simon S Aysdie wrote: >> >> > I was contemplating using "ad infinitum". I am not sure if I will use it. But I wondered if it should be italicized. I think I would not italicize it. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > https://www.enago.com/academy/should-you-italicize-latin-terms-in-scientific-writing/ >> >> > >> >> I'd certainly italicize "et al." "Ad infinitum" isn't really standard >> >> English over here, so I'd probably italicize it if I ever used it, which >> >> I don't recall having done in print. >> >> >> >> And the full stop after 'et al' is super important. 'T'aint me and my >> >> old pal Al. >> > >> >Thank you... Just looking for opinions. My typography book frowns on overuse of emphasis. That is, if I did use it I felt as though I had to justify emphasis. I guess this is the first time I've looked it up. >> I often use italics for a different purpose: If I have two sentences >> that are very similar, like sentences summarizing very similar (except >> for one thing) cases, I will italicize the critical word or phrase >> that changes between the cases, so people are drawn directly to the >> critical difference. instead of missing it, buried an all those words. > >Interesting. I don't come across that issue too much. I am not sure why. But your usage seems justified. > >I suppose I am conflating emphasis with font style for foreign language. The font style is the same for each. > >> >Writing is not my native element--I must check everything I do. It's a struggle. :) >> >> Even if one is a good writer, it's still a whole lotta work to get it >> exactly right, with draft after draft. > >"Good" to hear others share my pain. lol. > >If there is one thing I very much regret sandbagging in grade school, and on through high school, it is not having taken advantage of the opportunity to learn English. I have been paying for that mistake for decades. I thought it was "illogical" and "not worth my time." Wrong. >
It is illogical to be sure, as are all natural languages. But my mother beat it into me anyway. But getting the grammar et al exactly right is not usually the most important problem. It's getting the content and logical development correct. War story: In the mid 1980s, I had a programmer who was born in mainland China, and had escaped by swimming to Hong Kong, ending up in the Boston, MA area. His conversational English was workable but very rough. He used this to escape writing tasks. But tech writers don't know enough to write for him, and the other programmers had their own writing assignments to do. My solution was to have the programmer write his first draft in Chinese if he liked, then translate it into rough English, whereupon a tech writer would swoop in and clean his draft up. But the programmer was required to explain things to the writer until the writer was satisfied - the writer was in effect representing the future audience. Then I introduced the programmer to his newly-appointed tech-writer shadow. The programmer seemed startled. They were a Mutt-and-Jeff team: The programmer was basketball-player tall, a Manchurian, at 6' 6" and quite thin. The tech writer was a 5'3" male, and not so thin. Together, they produced a very good document, one that was actually superior to those written by programmers whose native language was English. Especially the ones who think that the best documentation of the code is the code itself. Joe Gwinn
Reply by Liz Tuddenham February 11, 20232023-02-11
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> On 2/10/2023 3:27 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin. > > > > We are very short of space on most issues, so every millimetre of width > > is needed. > > That was the overall impression. Is this a consequence of trying to > manage postage costs? Are you "entitled" to subsidized postage rates > as a "charity"?
There are discrete steps of printing and postage costs. A 24-page A5 booklet is all we can budget for. There are no charity postage rates in the UK. I constantly badger people for articles with no result, then lots of little items pile in shortly after the nominal deadline and we are short of space again. It makes for a more interesting magazine, but usually involves several major changes of layout at short notice. [...]
>Are you *really* > cropping the photos? Or, just "exposing them through an adjustable > window" in the document?
PageMaker does it by 'windowing': the document can be moved around under the frame to expose previously hidden portions. Photoshop does it by cropping, which can sometimes be a nuisance. [...]
> If *not* in chaos, you'd have no reason to meet? (or, are there still > other types of "meetings")
We have regular Committee meetings to discuss the general running of the Society, but the E.G.M. is a public event which is advertised in advance to all members.
> I have a whole set of (paragraph) tags just for bulleted lists: > - indented vs. flush left > - numbered vs. bulleted > - tight leading vs. open > as combinations of each of the above.
I can apply those where necessary, but have a small basic set of templates: Body text Intro Quotation Header1 Header 2 Author credit Picture caption Picture credit [...]
>>tradition says > > the Editor does not sign his or her own articles, so the underline is > > the way of indicating the end. > > Ah! I keep my name out of newsletters entirely. Not so for technical > articles (but also omitted for manuals).
I am shown as the Editor in the Committee listing, but don't sign my contributions. When I write canal articles for other publications it is usually anonymously or under the name of the society. I also write occasional technical magazine articles on a different subject under my own name. I have to write (and print and bind) manuals for electronic equipment I have designed, but they just go under the name of my company. [...]
> Frames carry offsets that they impose on the preceding and following > content (text). So, this discipline maintains spacing.
There is a sytem in PageMaker for doing that, but I have never managed to understand it, so I do it manually (with the occasional slip-up, as you spotted).
> >> - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?). Why? > > > > That is an inheritance from the days when this was a photocopied > > paste-up. There didn't seem to be any reason to change it (a lot of our > > members are very conservative), so it has stayed in the old format. > > <frown> OK (I guess)
My brief, on taking over as Editor, was to change the magazine as little as possible - the readers liked it as it was. The first edition I produced on a Mac was only distinguishable from the previous I.B.M. Golf-ball paste up by the improved quality of the photographs, which no longer required sceening. Several editions later I managed to sort out the Roman/San-Serif muddle without too much opposition, then settled down to keeping the format stable. The layout of the title page was an innovation that I stole from a 1946 edition of Wireless World. [...]
>There are tax consequences for donations to *registered* > charities, here. But, most folks know of them and/or are not > concerned with the magnitude of their donation/dues.
We have a complicated system for recovering charity memberships and donations from Income Tax, and there are standard legal procedures and wording which have to be followed. [...]
> "Your contact information is never sold, rented or disclosed in any way!"
We now have to have a signed declaration that the person has read our Privacy Statement and agrees to it before we are allowed to keep a note of their name and address. The wording is prescribed by law and the penalties for non-compliance are hefty. ~~~~~~ SECURITY (noun): Something which constantly interferes with legitimate everyday actions whilst having no effect on criminals. ~~~~~~ [...]
>> "Is that what you would have written if you had written it?". > > "So, you want me to do MY job *and* YOURS?"
...and if I don't, I shall have no article to publish.
> I had a woman who was going to do this, that and the other thing. > None of it was ever forthcoming. So, I had to do it for her -- and > let her discover this *after* publication ("Yeah, these articles > were supposed to be written by you. You don't recall writing them, > do you? Yet, here they are...")
I do check with the author before publishig it.
>
[bad photograph]
> More work than I'd care to take on. I'd let others, instead, notice > "What happened to Bob's article?" -- and direct them to ask Bob!
The problem is that it reflects badly on the magazine, not on the author. [...]
> "Let's write a 5 part series on..." > "Great -- let me see it WHEN IT IS DONE!"
Yes, I make it a rule never to publish Part 1 until Part n. is finished. It also makes it a lot easier to work out suitable splitting points if you have the whole thing complete. [...]
> > The superb map on the back page was drawn by one of our founding members > > who was a professional draughtsman; sadly he has just died and the next > > edition will contain an extensive obituary. > > This is all too common with volunteer/nonprofit organizations. > Young people are "too busy" (in their minds) to get involved. > So, much falls on "older folks".
That is partly what the E.G.M. is about. Either younger members step forward and take on some of the load, or the remaining Committee will collapse. What we don't want is "I know all about websites cause I wrote one once" (It was a template and I just filled it in.) or "I drive the forklift truck in a publisher's warehouse so I know all about magazines" (Tho I never done no gramur at skule). -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply by Don Y February 10, 20232023-02-10
On 2/10/2023 3:27 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin. > > We are very short of space on most issues, so every millimetre of width > is needed.
That was the overall impression. Is this a consequence of trying to manage postage costs? Are you "entitled" to subsidized postage rates as a "charity"?
>> FM lets you layer frames on/in other frames. So, I can create a >> frame for a photo. Then, create a frame ON that for a caption >> or callout. And, other graphic objects (circles, squares, rounded >> rectangles, arrows, etc. > > Claris Works does that easily but PageMaker is much more restricted and > less intuitive. Actually the whole magazine would be far easier to lay > out in Claris Works but for the fact that it doesn't allow cropping of > photographs. That's the only thing preventing me from using it.
I've never used CW so can't comment on it. Are you *really* cropping the photos? Or, just "exposing them through an adjustable window" in the document? E.g., the inset example I described has two full copies of the underlying photo in the document but "exposed" at different scales and offsets. [This is something to be wary of as some tools will actually include the masked-off portions of the object in the document! If you don't want those portions to be *accessible*, you have to explicitly crop them off before importing!]
>> (And, how does an EXTRAORDINARY meeting differ from an ORDINARY one?) > > The ordinary one (A.G.M.) is annually at about the same date and is a > legal obligation for a Registered Charity. The extraordinary one has > become necessary to thrash out a number of issues that have arisen > recently and must be sorted in order to present the next A.G.M. with a > considered plan to vote on. An E.G.M. is usually a sign that a society > is in chaos.
If *not* in chaos, you'd have no reason to meet? (or, are there still other types of "meetings")
>> - indent first line of paragraph *or* precede with blank line, not both >> (note typesetting of Martin's p6 article vs. Chairman's Notes) First >> paragraph of a section (article?) shouldn't be indented. >> - indent bulleted list items like the numbered list items (see p.5) >> I prefer no whitespace between items (like the numbered list) as >> I rely on whitespace to terminate the paragraph in which the list >> appears. > > Good points, I'll try them out and see if I like the look of them.
I have a whole set of (paragraph) tags just for bulleted lists: - indented vs. flush left - numbered vs. bulleted - tight leading vs. open as combinations of each of the above.
>> - I like a line across the bottom of the page to separate the >> "bottom material" (page number, publication title) from the >> body of the document. Similarly across the top -- for documents >> that have "top material" (yours doesn't). > > I do that if there are any references or footnotes, but not for the page > numbers. > > The other place I use a line under an article is when it is written by > the Editor (me). Normally I indicate the end of an article with the > author's name in block capitals and right-justified, but tradition says > the Editor does not sign his or her own articles, so the underline is > the way of indicating the end.
Ah! I keep my name out of newsletters entirely. Not so for technical articles (but also omitted for manuals).
>> - The "FOUNDATIONS..." caption on p11 sits right *on* the text beneath it. >> Contrast with the spacing between other captions and body text. > > That was a slip-up that went un-noticed.
FM requires a "frame" to be created for a photo, text insert, etc. When creating such a frame, I allocate extra space for a "text frame" contained within. The text frame holds the caption -- usually with a line separating the text from the "content". Frames carry offsets that they impose on the preceding and following content (text). So, this discipline maintains spacing.
>> - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?). Why? > > That is an inheritance from the days when this was a photocopied > paste-up. There didn't seem to be any reason to change it (a lot of our > members are very conservative), so it has stayed in the old format.
<frown> OK (I guess)
>> - If your membership form is suitably terse, perhaps include it instead >> of a reference to where readers can *find* it (I assume people are >> lazy and would respond more favorably to something in their hands) > > Unfortunately it has to include a lot of legal information about Gift > Aid (a U.K. tax avoidance scheme for charities) and more recently a > legally-required consent section for us to store the names and addresses > of our members. It crams in even more information than an average page > of the magazine.
Oh. There are tax consequences for donations to *registered* charities, here. But, most folks know of them and/or are not concerned with the magnitude of their donation/dues. Publishing names has some consequences, here (and its just good manners not to publish someone's name/donation without their consent). But, I don't think there are any legal requirements to disclose those requirements. "Your contact information is never sold, rented or disclosed in any way!"
>> I'm assuming this is a collaborative effort -- that each author sorted >> out what to present topically and in practical terms? > > It varies a lot. Some authors are very good, but others send in a list > of bullet points and say "Write that up into something people will want > to read". One article in this issue was completely 'ghost written', > based on a casual conversation, and then sent to the author with a note > saying "Is that what you would have written if you had written it?".
"So, you want me to do MY job *and* YOURS?" I had a woman who was going to do this, that and the other thing. None of it was ever forthcoming. So, I had to do it for her -- and let her discover this *after* publication ("Yeah, these articles were supposed to be written by you. You don't recall writing them, do you? Yet, here they are...")
> In one really bad case a while ago, an author sent in some accompanying > photographs that were vital to the article but were lopsided and so > lacking in contrast that it was impossible to see the important details > even with heavy Photoshopping. I had to work out where they had been > taken and which way the camera was pointing (straight into the sun), > then drive to the location at a time when I had worked out the light > would be right and re-photograph them. The author never spotted what I > had done.
More work than I'd care to take on. I'd let others, instead, notice "What happened to Bob's article?" -- and direct them to ask Bob!
>> Is this released >> monthly (as "January 2023" suggests)? How cooperative are your >> contributors (I note the Chairman's tardiness) in delivering material >> for YOUR deadlines? (I got tired of waiting for people to meet their >> commitments -- yeah, I've got "shit happening" too, yet *I* manage >> to meet mine...) > > It is supposed to be quarterly, but we rarely publish more than three in > any year. I would rather wait for good material than send out poor > quality 'fillers'. If I stamped my foot and insisted on deadlines, I > would get nothing at all. As it is, I finish up writing some of it > myself and re-writing many of the submissions.
Sounds familiar. I withdrew my efforts because of this sort of thing. I don't mind giving *my* time. But, for things that *I* am willing to do and for an amount of time that I can estimate and control. "Let's write a 5 part series on..." "Great -- let me see it WHEN IT IS DONE!"
>> Are the maps pasted "as is" or did they require augmentation? > > I usually draw a lot of the maps in Claris Works but the historic one on > p.19 was taken from a property ownership map. This meant it was covered > in handwritten notes about land ownership and inheritance relating to > familes who still live in the area. This sensitive information all had > to be Photoshopped out before I could use the map. The 'cloning' tool > in PhotoshopLE was very useful for reinstating the features that had > been covered by the writing.
Yeah, PS is delightful for doctoring images. I was creating icons for my workstations, last night. I name each network device after a cartoon character, grouping similar devices into the same series (e.g., workstations after The Flintstones, NASs after The Jetsons, etc.). So, I have to locate artwork (online) with the character(s) of interest, in suitable poses, and then elide all the extra cruft from the image so I am left with *just* that character. It's tedious (trying to cut to the nearest pixel with your masking tool) but a sort of refreshingly brain-dead activity; if you screw up, you just hit UNDO and try again!
> The superb map on the back page was drawn by one of our founding members > who was a professional draughtsman; sadly he has just died and the next > edition will contain an extensive obituary.
This is all too common with volunteer/nonprofit organizations. Young people are "too busy" (in their minds) to get involved. So, much falls on "older folks". By far, most of the "dead people that I know" were from these sorts of organizations. Here, many folks have alternate homes "elsewhere". So, you expect them to be gone for half of the year. When they don't return, you wonder if they "lost interest" or "stopped breathing".
Reply by Liz Tuddenham February 10, 20232023-02-10
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]
> For anything "of length", "justified" is often better.
[...]
> for short > line lengths, justified often leads to uncomfortably large gaps > between words
That's the key to it - it all depends on the line length. I've never stopped to analyse it before, but you have hit the nail on the head there.
> You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin.
We are very short of space on most issues, so every millimetre of width is needed. [...]
> Whitespace is A Good Thing.
Yes. A friend, who was a properly trained printer of the old school, gave me a thorough grounding in the use of white space - but it is a luxury in a small magazine. [...]
> The "wide outer margin" could be exploited to give you room for > one (or two) side heads framing the photo.
I have done that in some editions, it all depends on the aspect ratio of the centre-spread picture. [...]
>I didn't like PageMaker. Or Quark. I suspect they are more geared > towards general layout. E.g., when trying to paste up a newspaper > or advertising flyer -- lots of related items but not a single "thread" > running through the entire publication.
PageMaker does threading but it is easy to loose the continuity when it crashes (which it does all too frequently). The work in progress should be saved often and under different filenames,.so you can back-track when it all falls apart or refuses to open.
> For my documents, I can use text boxes ("asides") to address a separate > thread that annotates/embelishes the body text and manually place it. > > Other "threads" are usually separate publications. E.g., my current project > has thousands of pages of documentation tied together into a single > document set (cross references bridging documents).
You are dealing with a very different animal there.
> FM lets you layer frames on/in other frames. So, I can create a > frame for a photo. Then, create a frame ON that for a caption > or callout. And, other graphic objects (circles, squares, rounded > rectangles, arrows, etc.
Claris Works does that easily but PageMaker is much more restricted and less intuitive. Actually the whole magazine would be far easier to lay out in Claris Works but for the fact that it doesn't allow cropping of photographs. That's the only thing preventing me from using it. [...]
> > That's a little too artsy for our magazine, which is hovering between a > > newsletter and a proper journal. > > <http://www.coalcanal.org/wh/2w-images/85-Screen-readable.pdf> > > Christ! You need to put a warning on any publication that the user > could open and find himself facing that bright a color!! :>
The idea is to have each edition coloured differently, following the spectrum, so that they appear as a rainbow on the shelf. Originally I wanted to use a two-colour scheme to encode the issue number, using the resistor colour code*, but I found this was impractical for various reasons. [* Just to keep the thread on-topic.]
> (And, how does an EXTRAORDINARY meeting differ from an ORDINARY one?)
The ordinary one (A.G.M.) is annually at about the same date and is a legal obligation for a Registered Charity. The extraordinary one has become necessary to thrash out a number of issues that have arisen recently and must be sorted in order to present the next A.G.M. with a considered plan to vote on. An E.G.M. is usually a sign that a society is in chaos.
> The (critical) comments that come to mind: > - add more leading
This issue was particularly 'tight' ; there was a lot of accumulated material because publication had been badly delayed (by chaos). My template has more leading, but I found myself reducing it in nearly every article, just to get everything in without squeezing the pictures down to postage stamps. There are back issues at: < http://www.coalcanal.org/wh.php> and you will see that some of them are a bit less cramped. i would love to e able to use more leading, but doing that for just one article would make all the others look cramped.
> - indent first line of paragraph *or* precede with blank line, not both > (note typesetting of Martin's p6 article vs. Chairman's Notes) First > paragraph of a section (article?) shouldn't be indented. > - indent bulleted list items like the numbered list items (see p.5) > I prefer no whitespace between items (like the numbered list) as > I rely on whitespace to terminate the paragraph in which the list > appears.
Good points, I'll try them out and see if I like the look of them.
> - widen margins of introductory italicized paragraphs to make them > stand out more (and not just look like italicized paragraphs)
Lack of space, I'm afraid. I've seen it in other publications and it does look much better.
> - I like a line across the bottom of the page to separate the > "bottom material" (page number, publication title) from the > body of the document. Similarly across the top -- for documents > that have "top material" (yours doesn't).
I do that if there are any references or footnotes, but not for the page numbers. The other place I use a line under an article is when it is written by the Editor (me). Normally I indicate the end of an article with the author's name in block capitals and right-justified, but tradition says the Editor does not sign his or her own articles, so the underline is the way of indicating the end.
> - The "FOUNDATIONS..." caption on p11 sits right *on* the text beneath it. > Contrast with the spacing between other captions and body text.
That was a slip-up that went un-noticed.
> - I (eventually) sorted out the significance of the color-coding > on p21. Perhaps some more contrasting colors to make it more apparent?
The colours were originally used for the 'Events' web-page and had to show up well on a pale blue background. I decided to use the same colours in the printed publication to avoid confusion - which meant that they weren't necessarily the optimum colours on a white page. If you look at the corresponding pages in the back-issues, you will see what has happened. Originally we didn't list the Combe Hay work parties but the leader of that group has asked us to publicise them. This means a huge increase in the number of events listed and, if I had stuck to our previous format, they would have swamped all the other events and the list wouldn't have fitted on the page. Instead of repeating the same information each time, I printed it once and then used colour coding to tie it in with the chronological listing. (The use of superscripts, asterisks and daggers was rejected by the deputy editor).
> - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?). Why?
That is an inheritance from the days when this was a photocopied paste-up. There didn't seem to be any reason to change it (a lot of our members are very conservative), so it has stayed in the old format.
> - If your membership form is suitably terse, perhaps include it instead > of a reference to where readers can *find* it (I assume people are > lazy and would respond more favorably to something in their hands)
Unfortunately it has to include a lot of legal information about Gift Aid (a U.K. tax avoidance scheme for charities) and more recently a legally-required consent section for us to store the names and addresses of our members. It crams in even more information than an average page of the magazine.
> > In general, I like the mix of text and photos. There's enough whitespace > that it doesn't feel like you've got too much crammed in too little > space (except for the leading issue). Nor, too little to fill the page! > It's really interesting to see how much you've put into such a small > document. The p12-13 spread is particularly attractive.
Thank you for that. It is nice to know the many hours spent re-working it have achieved the desired effect.
> > I'm assuming this is a collaborative effort -- that each author sorted > out what to present topically and in practical terms?
It varies a lot. Some authors are very good, but others send in a list of bullet points and say "Write that up into something people will want to read". One article in this issue was completely 'ghost written', based on a casual conversation, and then sent to the author with a note saying "Is that what you would have written if you had written it?". In one really bad case a while ago, an author sent in some accompanying photographs that were vital to the article but were lopsided and so lacking in contrast that it was impossible to see the important details even with heavy Photoshopping. I had to work out where they had been taken and which way the camera was pointing (straight into the sun), then drive to the location at a time when I had worked out the light would be right and re-photograph them. The author never spotted what I had done. > Is this released
> monthly (as "January 2023" suggests)? How cooperative are your > contributors (I note the Chairman's tardiness) in delivering material > for YOUR deadlines? (I got tired of waiting for people to meet their > commitments -- yeah, I've got "shit happening" too, yet *I* manage > to meet mine...)
It is supposed to be quarterly, but we rarely publish more than three in any year. I would rather wait for good material than send out poor quality 'fillers'. If I stamped my foot and insisted on deadlines, I would get nothing at all. As it is, I finish up writing some of it myself and re-writing many of the submissions.
> > Are the maps pasted "as is" or did they require augmentation?
I usually draw a lot of the maps in Claris Works but the historic one on p.19 was taken from a property ownership map. This meant it was covered in handwritten notes about land ownership and inheritance relating to familes who still live in the area. This sensitive information all had to be Photoshopped out before I could use the map. The 'cloning' tool in PhotoshopLE was very useful for reinstating the features that had been covered by the writing. The superb map on the back page was drawn by one of our founding members who was a professional draughtsman; sadly he has just died and the next edition will contain an extensive obituary.
> > Of course, this is just personal preferences, on my part. Typesetting > is a bit like art -- lots of personal preferences come into play. As > long as the audience doesn't object... > > Check your mail.
I have recived it and will reply by mail. -- ~ Liz Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Reply by Don Y February 10, 20232023-02-10
On 2/10/2023 4:53 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: > >> "Newcomers" often don't understand HOW people read. E.g., I try to leave >> body text "ragged right" whereas a newcomer, delighted with the ability of >> the tools to pad line widths would leave them squared off on both sides. > > I'm not sure how that helps the reader; but I've not tried it as the > magazine has always used justified text to give equal-length lines.
For anything "of length", "justified" is often better. But, for short "things" (even within a larger work), ragged right has value. You'd not set a haiku, justified. <grin> And, for short line lengths, justified often leads to uncomfortably large gaps between words as there's often nt enough space for the *next* word without perpetually resorting to hyphenation (which is tedious to read).
>> Or, a single wide column vs multiple narrow columns (that make >> it easier for the reader to relocate the start of the NEXT line. > > Now that is a real problem with this magazine. It uses A5 'portrait' > page size printed 2-up on A4 'landscape' sheets, folded and stapled. > The width of A5 'portrait' is just a bit too wide for a single column to > be comfortable because the eye has difficulty finding the start of the > next line. Splitting it into two columns, > minus the width of the page > gutter and the column > gutter, leaves almost no > space for the text, > so the lnes become > too short and making > sense of long > sentences becomes > very difficult.
You can try a single column with an overly wide outer margin. This is the format that I prefer for technical documents. The column is wide enough that it can support a meaningful table or illustration (narrower columns means such an insert often has to bridge multiple columns to have enough elbow room). Yet, the line length isn't *too* long to make following from one line to the next difficult. I use the outer margin for "side headings"... little phrases that direct the reader to specific paragraphs without being as formal as real headings/subheadings. Or, to highlight some particularly significant issue that a reader may want to locate, at a later date (E.g., leap second handling). In a pinch, I'll let a really wide table or illustration intrude on the outer margin where it seems visually appropriate. Whitespace is A Good Thing. [However, if whitespace within body text starts to look very "regular" -- resembling unintentional gutters running vertically through the body text -- it's best to break that up. But, that almost always requires rewriting stuff to coax the spaces elsewhere.]
> On the centre page spread , which covers A4 width with no central > gutter, I have sometimes used three columns, which looks about right, > but I prefer to reserve this special page for large pictures which > benefit from being reproduced at full size (albeit with a couple of > staples showing through).
The "wide outer margin" could be exploited to give you room for one (or two) side heads framing the photo.
>> Good tools will let you define different "flows" so you can paste >> a lengthy bit of text into multiple boxes that span page breaks. > > I lay it up in PageMaker 6.5, which has every tool imaginable and is an > absolute pig to use. Some of the most commonly used commands, like > switching between text and layout tools ought to have keyboard shortcuts > - but if they have, there is nothing in the manual about them and I > haven't found them in 20 years of struggling with the program.
Yeah, I didn't like PageMaker. Or Quark. I suspect they are more geared towards general layout. E.g., when trying to paste up a newspaper or advertising flyer -- lots of related items but not a single "thread" running through the entire publication. For my documents, I can use text boxes ("asides") to address a separate thread that annotates/embelishes the body text and manually place it. Other "threads" are usually separate publications. E.g., my current project has thousands of pages of documentation tied together into a single document set (cross references bridging documents). But, they are each large enough to stand on their own -- not needing to share a page with other "small" objects. So, I can let FM handle the layout of content within a document (treating it as sections and subsections, tables/prose/illustrations) and do the "macro" layout more like volumes in an encyclopedia.
> The conventional keyboard shortcuts for Bold, Italic etc. don't work, > they bring up unwanted 'features' that would be best relegated to the > depths of some obscure and little-used branch of a menu tree. The only > thing in its favour is that I've seen others that are worse.
Be thankful you're not using an Executive and hot wax for your pasteups! :-/
>> I often have a photo and want to highlight a particular portion >> of the photo ("detail"). I will insert another *graphic* "frame" >> onto the illustration and paste the same photo into it (!). >> Then, pan that copy of the photo to center the detail in the >> frame and adjust the scale to magnify the detail of interest >> to fill the frame. A circle in the overlayed photo (with "rays" >> leading out to the inset) draws attention to the portion that is >> being magnified in the inset. > > That is where I find the old Mac system (OS 8.6) scores. The 'native' > interchange format is PICT, which handles all sorts of other formats > without losses. I can dump a JPEG or a spreadsheet or text into the > drawing section of Claris Works and add any geometric shapes and text I > want, then export that as a PICT into Photoshop to generate the EPS > format that works best in PageMaker. A lot of the diagrams and drawings > in the magazine are originated in Claris Works at double size or bigger, > they then give crisp images when reduced to a size that fits the > magazine page.
In theory, one can use MS's OLE (?) to paste objects into FM. But, I think that's just one more thing that MS can f*ckup for me when I can least afford it. So, I manually paste (or "link via reference") objects into frames. FM lets you layer frames on/in other frames. So, I can create a frame for a photo. Then, create a frame ON that for a caption or callout. And, other graphic objects (circles, squares, rounded rectangles, arrows, etc. I find this particularly helpful when trying to paste something from another "smart" tool that wants to do its own "autolayout" (like Mathematica trying to annotate a graph that it has rendered). The text from those tools is often of a different/lesser caliber and often placed in less than ideal locations, So, I tell them NOT to add any additional text and manually overlay it onto the object in FM -- using the font that is appropriate to the document.
>>> Just occasionally I use 'bastard >>> setting' ... > [...] >> Often encountered with large "drop caps" at the start of a paragraph. >> More commonly found in promotional materials where you want the layout to >> have a more "artsy" feel. Again, audience. > > That's a little too artsy for our magazine, which is hovering between a > newsletter and a proper journal. > <http://www.coalcanal.org/wh/2w-images/85-Screen-readable.pdf>
Christ! You need to put a warning on any publication that the user could open and find himself facing that bright a color!! :> (And, how does an EXTRAORDINARY meeting differ from an ORDINARY one?) The (critical) comments that come to mind: - add more leading - indent first line of paragraph *or* precede with blank line, not both (note typesetting of Martin's p6 article vs. Chairman's Notes) First paragraph of a section (article?) shouldn't be indented. - indent bulleted list items like the numbered list items (see p.5) I prefer no whitespace between items (like the numbered list) as I rely on whitespace to terminate the paragraph in which the list appears. - widen margins of introductory italicized paragraphs to make them stand out more (and not just look like italicized paragraphs) - 86 the all-caps on photo captions - I like a line across the bottom of the page to separate the "bottom material" (page number, publication title) from the body of the document. Similarly across the top -- for documents that have "top material" (yours doesn't). - The "FOUNDATIONS..." caption on p11 sits right *on* the text beneath it. Contrast with the spacing between other captions and body text. - I (eventually) sorted out the significance of the color-coding on p21. Perhaps some more contrasting colors to make it more apparent? - The last page (?) is set in a sans serif typeface (?). Why? - If your membership form is suitably terse, perhaps include it instead of a reference to where readers can *find* it (I assume people are lazy and would respond more favorably to something in their hands) In general, I like the mix of text and photos. There's enough whitespace that it doesn't feel like you've got too much crammed in too little space (except for the leading issue). Nor, too little to fill the page! It's really interesting to see how much you've put into such a small document. The p12-13 spread is particularly attractive. I'm assuming this is a collaborative effort -- that each author sorted out what to present topically and in practical terms? Is this released monthly (as "January 2023" suggests)? How cooperative are your contributors (I note the Chairman's tardiness) in delivering material for YOUR deadlines? (I got tired of waiting for people to meet their commitments -- yeah, I've got "shit happening" too, yet *I* manage to meet mine...) Are the maps pasted "as is" or did they require augmentation? Of course, this is just personal preferences, on my part. Typesetting is a bit like art -- lots of personal preferences come into play. As long as the audience doesn't object... Check your mail.