On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 11:01:32 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:53:36 AM UTC-7, a a wrote: > > On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 19:28:12 UTC+2, Ed Lee wrote: > > > On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:23:47 AM UTC-7, a a wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 18:05:08 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: > > > > > tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman: > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for > > > > > > Li-ion equivalents in a UPS? > > > > > > > > > > > > I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I'm concerned about > > > > > > their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be > > > > > > extremely expensive. > > > > > might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible > > > > > > > > > > LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion > > > > LiFe4 car batteries is old fake promoted by traders, which has never worked fine. > > > > > > > > LiFe4 is still Li-ion battery and should be avoided to not risk fire in your car. > > > Yes, you need good BMS and manual disconnect. > > > > My friend offered me 80 used LiFe4 90Ah car batteries from his electric car, affected by pillow syndrome > > > > but I rejected to not risk my home demolished one day. > > > Tell him to put it on ebay and give me a link here. I might get them if the price is right. > > Better turn your electric car into mobile 100 kWh UPS > Mine is essentially Li UPS. LA is too heavy.BTW, my 12V to 400V DC/DC converter is 100% efficient.
Li-ion UPS battery substitution in UPS
Started by ●October 18, 2022
Reply by ●October 18, 20222022-10-18
Reply by ●October 18, 20222022-10-18
On 10/18/2022 8:43 AM, Bert Hickman wrote:> Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for Li-ion > equivalents in a UPS? > > I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I'm concerned about their > safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be extremely expensive.I wouldn't trust them -- unless the UPS manufacturer had blessed them (and dubious, even then). If you are having problems with battery life in UPS, look to see how it is being charged. Many "cook" their batteries (poor circuit tolerances). Also, they seem intent on recharging QUICKLY (in case another outage??) instead of trying to prolong the batteries' service life. Finally, note that many places will pay you for the lead in your old batteries. If you're just using 12V7.2AHr batteries, then there's not much money there (~$0.20/pound). OTOH, if you have a bigger UPS, you can get a fair bit back (I got over $100 for the dead batteries in my biggest UPS)
Reply by ●October 18, 20222022-10-18
On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 23:10:35 UTC+2, Don Y wrote:> On 10/18/2022 8:43 AM, Bert Hickman wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for Li-ion > > equivalents in a UPS? > > > > I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I'm concerned about their > > safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be extremely expensive. > I wouldn't trust them -- unless the UPS manufacturer had blessed them > (and dubious, even then). > > If you are having problems with battery life in UPS, look to see > how it is being charged. Many "cook" their batteries (poor > circuit tolerances). Also, they seem intent on recharging QUICKLY > (in case another outage??) instead of trying to prolong the batteries' > service life. > > Finally, note that many places will pay you for the lead in > your old batteries. If you're just using 12V7.2AHr batteries, > then there's not much money there (~$0.20/pound). OTOH, if > you have a bigger UPS, you can get a fair bit back (I got > over $100 for the dead batteries in my biggest UPS)Never recycle used UPS gel batteries since installed to operate in serial string, can crash if a single gel battery crashes, so the rest can still be fit for home use. The same works for laptop batteries 2P 3S Battery crashes but you can still recover 2 or 4 pieces if not left uncharged for a long time
Reply by ●October 19, 20222022-10-19
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman <bert@capturedlightning.com> wrote:>Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for >Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider. Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid batteries last the longest when kept at full charge. LA's biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important. LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS, emergency ligting and similar. -- RoRo
Reply by ●October 19, 20222022-10-19
On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote:> On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman > <be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote: > > >Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for > >Li-ion equivalents in a UPS? > Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider. > > Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid > batteries last the longest when kept at full charge. > > LA's biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and > large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important. > > LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS, > emergency ligting and similar. > -- > RoRowrong in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries but you don't use car lead-acid batteries in UPS since in UPS you use Gel batteries
Reply by ●October 19, 20222022-10-19
On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 10:52:37 UTC+1, a a wrote:> On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman > > <be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote: > > > > >Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for > > >Li-ion equivalents in a UPS? > > Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider. > > > > Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid > > batteries last the longest when kept at full charge. > > > > LA's biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and > > large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important. > > > > LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS, > > emergency ligting and similar. > > -- > > RoRo > wrong > in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries > but you don't use car lead-acid batteries in UPS > since in UPS you use Gel batteriesBut those gel batteries ARE lead acid! They just have the gel to hold the acid in place along with catalysts to aid recombination of evolved gas. Some car batteries are gel or glass mat types. However, LiFePO4 batteries do seem to avoid most of the problems of original Li ion batteries. Tesla are now using them in most of their cars. Ford and VW are planning to do the same. John
Reply by ●October 19, 20222022-10-19
On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 12:01:40 UTC+2, John Walliker wrote:> On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 10:52:37 UTC+1, a a wrote: > > On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote: > > > On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman > > > <be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote: > > > > > > >Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for > > > >Li-ion equivalents in a UPS? > > > Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider. > > > > > > Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid > > > batteries last the longest when kept at full charge. > > > > > > LA's biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and > > > large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important. > > > > > > LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS, > > > emergency ligting and similar. > > > -- > > > RoRo > > wrong > > in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries > > but you don't use car lead-acid batteries in UPS > > since in UPS you use Gel batteries > But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! They just have the gel > to hold the acid in place along with catalysts to aid > recombination of evolved gas. > Some car batteries are gel or glass mat types. > However, LiFePO4 batteries do seem to avoid most of the problems > of original Li ion batteries. Tesla are now using them in most of > their cars. Ford and VW are planning to do the same. > John"But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! exactly, but they are not fit for your car as car battery My friend offered me 80 used LiFePO4 batteries from his electric car made in Italy and I simply rejected not being interested to go into problems with charging them individually at home for 2 months What is safe and called electric car outdoor charging is not exactly safe while arranged indoor, at your home. It m ay take another 10 years to get LiFePO4 batteries to replace standard Lea-Acid car batteries. Ideas by Elon don't make the world LiFePO4 batteries are affected by pillow syndrome so not fit to be installed in tigh compartment in your car
Reply by ●October 19, 20222022-10-19
On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 3:23:59 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:> On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 12:01:40 UTC+2, John Walliker wrote: > > On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 10:52:37 UTC+1, a a wrote: > > > On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote: > > > > On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman > > > > <be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for > > > > >Li-ion equivalents in a UPS? > > > > Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider. > > > > > > > > Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid > > > > batteries last the longest when kept at full charge. > > > > > > > > LA's biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and > > > > large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important. > > > > > > > > LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS, > > > > emergency ligting and similar. > > > > -- > > > > RoRo > > > wrong > > > in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries > > > but you don't use car lead-acid batteries in UPS > > > since in UPS you use Gel batteries > > But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! They just have the gel > > to hold the acid in place along with catalysts to aid > > recombination of evolved gas. > > Some car batteries are gel or glass mat types. > > However, LiFePO4 batteries do seem to avoid most of the problems > > of original Li ion batteries. Tesla are now using them in most of > > their cars. Ford and VW are planning to do the same. > > John > "But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! > exactly, but they are not fit for your car as car battery > > My friend offered me 80 used LiFePO4 batteries from his electric car made in Italy > and I simply rejected not being interested to go into problems with charging them individually at home for 2 months > > What is safe and called electric car outdoor charging > is not exactly safe while arranged indoor, at your home. > > It m ay take another 10 years to get LiFePO4 batteries to replace standard Lea-Acid car batteries. > > Ideas by Elon don't make the world > > LiFePO4 batteries are affected by pillow syndrome so not fit to be installed in tigh compartment in your carGood BMSs stop over-charging and under-discharging. Good EVs don't have pillows.
Reply by ●October 21, 20222022-10-21
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman <bert@capturedlightning.com> wrote:>Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for >Li-ion equivalents in a UPS? > >I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I'm concerned about >their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be >extremely expensive.Go for LiFePO4 (lithium iron), but only if the firmware is updated to allow for proper charge termination and voltage settings. A capacitive balancing circuit is a good idea. RL
Reply by ●October 21, 20222022-10-21
On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 5:10:35 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:> On 10/18/2022 8:43 AM, Bert Hickman wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for Li-ion > > equivalents in a UPS? > > > > I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I'm concerned about their > > safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be extremely expensive. > I wouldn't trust them -- unless the UPS manufacturer had blessed them > (and dubious, even then). > > If you are having problems with battery life in UPS, look to see > how it is being charged. Many "cook" their batteries (poor > circuit tolerances). Also, they seem intent on recharging QUICKLY > (in case another outage??) instead of trying to prolong the batteries' > service life. > > Finally, note that many places will pay you for the lead in > your old batteries. If you're just using 12V7.2AHr batteries, > then there's not much money there (~$0.20/pound). OTOH, if > you have a bigger UPS, you can get a fair bit back (I got > over $100 for the dead batteries in my biggest UPS)Do you really think the modern lithium battery is just a dumb collection of cells. The products going after the SLA market almost certainly have built-in BMS ( battery management system) that cuts off the charging current when fully charged. And that BMS is probably made by Analog Devices. Last time I looked the charge management cuts off the float mode charge current when it has fallen to 25% or so of the initial Ipk delivered to the uncharged battery. And there's a sensitivity of 100:1 state of charge to the temperature dependent open terminal voltage, so the process requires great precision. Nonetheless, it's simple to very reliably put the lithium into the SLA charge circuit- within reason.
