Li-ion UPS battery substitution in UPS

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 3:28:07 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/22/2022 3:05 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >>> My Leaf won't wakeup after 2 or 3 days sleeping. It's mostly because of 
> >>> the 100W power relay. 
> >> Are you saying that the relay actuator dissipates 100W WHILE SLEEPING? 
> > 
> > No, 100W when the car is on. After a few days, the 12V battery is too weak 
> > to pull the 100W power relay (switching 400V on).
> Is there a parasitic drain on that battery? Or, is it just undersized 
> for the task? (one would expect a car sitting for 2 or 3 days to be 
> somewhat "normal use")

Just old age.  The battery is 10 years old.  The solar charger is probably dead also, or not enough sun in SF.

> >> Why isn't the resting state of the relay the one that doesn't draw power? 
> >> Does an additional 100W "driving load" hurt your efficiency that much that 
> >> it has to be moved to the "charging" state? 
> >>> I could just jumper short the relay output, when i open up the battery 
> >>> next time. For now, i just added a 200Wh (3S9P) Li power brick (around 5 
> >>> pounds) to the LA battery. The Li BMS cutoff at 11.5V when charging. 
> >>> It's fine in this case. The Li battery mostly keep the LA battery from 
> >>> dropping too low. 
> >> So, you're just using the lithium battery to keep the leaky lead acid 
> >> battery "topped off". Could that brick achieve the same purpose if 
> >> connected to the battery via a pushbutton that you momentarily activate 
> >> prior to starting the vehicle? (Or, is the LA battery your main 
> >> propulsion battery pack) 
> > 
> > Yes, i also did an emergency jump charging from 400V to 12V with 5S5P 200K 
> > resistor. Not very efficient, but works and i happened to have the 
> > resistors in the car, and 400V tap in the backseat. The traction/propulsion 
> > battery is 24kWh 96S Li.
> This suggests either replacing the battery with something with less 
> leakage/more reserve (assuming there is no unintentional leak) 
> or just installing the lithium battery as a built-in jump starter. 
> 
> Though your approach suggests you don't have to worry about 
> keeping the lithium charged if permanently installed (?)

Yes, the Li power brick is essentially a built-in automatic jump starter.  It's around $28 including shipping, but with more capacity than the $2899 UPS.

On 10/22/2022 3:37 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 3:28:07 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/22/2022 3:05 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>>>> My Leaf won't wakeup after 2 or 3 days sleeping. It's mostly because
>>>>> of the 100W power relay.
>>>> Are you saying that the relay actuator dissipates 100W WHILE
>>>> SLEEPING?
>>> 
>>> No, 100W when the car is on. After a few days, the 12V battery is too
>>> weak to pull the 100W power relay (switching 400V on).
>> Is there a parasitic drain on that battery? Or, is it just undersized for
>> the task? (one would expect a car sitting for 2 or 3 days to be somewhat
>> "normal use")
> 
> Just old age.  The battery is 10 years old.  The solar charger is probably
> dead also, or not enough sun in SF.

Oh.  You know you *can* buy a replacement battery!  :>

>>>> Why isn't the resting state of the relay the one that doesn't draw
>>>> power? Does an additional 100W "driving load" hurt your efficiency
>>>> that much that it has to be moved to the "charging" state?
>>>>> I could just jumper short the relay output, when i open up the
>>>>> battery next time. For now, i just added a 200Wh (3S9P) Li power
>>>>> brick (around 5 pounds) to the LA battery. The Li BMS cutoff at
>>>>> 11.5V when charging. It's fine in this case. The Li battery mostly
>>>>> keep the LA battery from dropping too low.
>>>> So, you're just using the lithium battery to keep the leaky lead acid 
>>>> battery "topped off". Could that brick achieve the same purpose if 
>>>> connected to the battery via a pushbutton that you momentarily
>>>> activate prior to starting the vehicle? (Or, is the LA battery your
>>>> main propulsion battery pack)
>>> 
>>> Yes, i also did an emergency jump charging from 400V to 12V with 5S5P
>>> 200K resistor. Not very efficient, but works and i happened to have the 
>>> resistors in the car, and 400V tap in the backseat. The
>>> traction/propulsion battery is 24kWh 96S Li.
>> This suggests either replacing the battery with something with less 
>> leakage/more reserve (assuming there is no unintentional leak) or just
>> installing the lithium battery as a built-in jump starter.
>> 
>> Though your approach suggests you don't have to worry about keeping the
>> lithium charged if permanently installed (?)
> 
> Yes, the Li power brick is essentially a built-in automatic jump starter.
> It's around $28 including shipping, but with more capacity than the $2899
> UPS.

Are you sure about that?  E.g., I doubt the battery has MUCH effect on
the efficiency of the UPS.  Both units claim the same load capacity and
run-time -- so, likely have the same "reserve energy capacity".

Mine (the lead acid unit) has a 350WHr battery pack (48V @ 7.2AHr)
so I would assume the lithium variant is comparable.

Regardless, they serve different functions.  Does your starter
provide a 120V 60Hz waveform that you can use to power a household
appliance?  <grin>

I think the lithium units are attractive in data centers where
size and weight are important.  SOHO users don't care how much
(of either) their solutions entail.  They likely have one (or
"a few") unit and find a way of "accommodating it".

Data centers can have dozens to hundreds -- each trying to keep a
load "up" long enough for the genset to kick in.  Lead acid battery
packs are heavy (think total weight on the floor supports for
the data center as well as the human hassle of sliding the UPS out
on its rails for service/replacement)

SOHO users likely have more accessible spaces -- man-handle the UPS
to a spot where you can open it up *or* remove it.  Mine are sited
under my workbenches -- which is great for keeping them out of the
way (sub-prime real estate).  But, a nuisance when it comes to
plugging/unplugging loads!  (SWMBO would roll her eyes watching me
attempt to thread my body OVER a disk array -- to heavy to move! -- to
get access to the back panel of the adjacent UPS.  The empirically
discovered solution is to MOVE THE UPS's OUTLETS to a more
accessible location while keeping the UPS happy where it is!)

(sigh)  Oh what it would be like to have a BASEMENT!!!  :<

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:06:17 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/22/2022 3:37 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 3:28:07 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: 
> >> On 10/22/2022 3:05 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >>>>> My Leaf won't wakeup after 2 or 3 days sleeping. It's mostly because 
> >>>>> of the 100W power relay. 
> >>>> Are you saying that the relay actuator dissipates 100W WHILE 
> >>>> SLEEPING? 
> >>> 
> >>> No, 100W when the car is on. After a few days, the 12V battery is too 
> >>> weak to pull the 100W power relay (switching 400V on). 
> >> Is there a parasitic drain on that battery? Or, is it just undersized for 
> >> the task? (one would expect a car sitting for 2 or 3 days to be somewhat 
> >> "normal use") 
> > 
> > Just old age. The battery is 10 years old. The solar charger is probably 
> > dead also, or not enough sun in SF.
> Oh. You know you *can* buy a replacement battery! :>
> >>>> Why isn't the resting state of the relay the one that doesn't draw 
> >>>> power? Does an additional 100W "driving load" hurt your efficiency 
> >>>> that much that it has to be moved to the "charging" state? 
> >>>>> I could just jumper short the relay output, when i open up the 
> >>>>> battery next time. For now, i just added a 200Wh (3S9P) Li power 
> >>>>> brick (around 5 pounds) to the LA battery. The Li BMS cutoff at 
> >>>>> 11.5V when charging. It's fine in this case. The Li battery mostly 
> >>>>> keep the LA battery from dropping too low. 
> >>>> So, you're just using the lithium battery to keep the leaky lead acid 
> >>>> battery "topped off". Could that brick achieve the same purpose if 
> >>>> connected to the battery via a pushbutton that you momentarily 
> >>>> activate prior to starting the vehicle? (Or, is the LA battery your 
> >>>> main propulsion battery pack) 
> >>> 
> >>> Yes, i also did an emergency jump charging from 400V to 12V with 5S5P 
> >>> 200K resistor. Not very efficient, but works and i happened to have the 
> >>> resistors in the car, and 400V tap in the backseat. The 
> >>> traction/propulsion battery is 24kWh 96S Li. 
> >> This suggests either replacing the battery with something with less 
> >> leakage/more reserve (assuming there is no unintentional leak) or just 
> >> installing the lithium battery as a built-in jump starter. 
> >> 
> >> Though your approach suggests you don't have to worry about keeping the 
> >> lithium charged if permanently installed (?) 
> > 
> > Yes, the Li power brick is essentially a built-in automatic jump starter. 
> > It's around $28 including shipping, but with more capacity than the $2899 
> > UPS.
> Are you sure about that? E.g., I doubt the battery has MUCH effect on 
> the efficiency of the UPS. Both units claim the same load capacity and 
> run-time -- so, likely have the same "reserve energy capacity". 
> 
> Mine (the lead acid unit) has a 350WHr battery pack (48V @ 7.2AHr) 
> so I would assume the lithium variant is comparable. 

My Li brick is 300WHr new (perhaps 250WHr used). 12V @ 27AHr

> Regardless, they serve different functions. Does your starter 
> provide a 120V 60Hz waveform that you can use to power a household 
> appliance? <grin> 

With an inverter, I can power a labtop for at least an hour, or 32 of them for a day.

On 10/22/2022 4:20 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> Yes, the Li power brick is essentially a built-in automatic jump starter.
>>> It's around $28 including shipping, but with more capacity than the $2899
>>> UPS.
>> Are you sure about that? E.g., I doubt the battery has MUCH effect on
>> the efficiency of the UPS. Both units claim the same load capacity and
>> run-time -- so, likely have the same "reserve energy capacity".
>>
>> Mine (the lead acid unit) has a 350WHr battery pack (48V @ 7.2AHr)
>> so I would assume the lithium variant is comparable.
> 
> My Li brick is 300WHr new (perhaps 250WHr used). 12V @ 27AHr

So, a bit smaller than what's in the UPS (if we assume similar
efficiencies for the lead acid and lithium inverters)

>> Regardless, they serve different functions. Does your starter
>> provide a 120V 60Hz waveform that you can use to power a household
>> appliance? <grin>
> 
> With an inverter, I can power a labtop for at least an hour, or 32 of them for a day.

Yeah, and with 4 wheels and a lightweight chassis, I could ride around
the block!  :>

Gotta wonder why they aren't buying inverters and "battery jumpstarters"
to power their data centers, eh?

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:28:03 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/22/2022 4:20 PM, Ed Lee wrote: 
> >>> Yes, the Li power brick is essentially a built-in automatic jump starter. 
> >>> It's around $28 including shipping, but with more capacity than the $2899 
> >>> UPS. 
> >> Are you sure about that? E.g., I doubt the battery has MUCH effect on 
> >> the efficiency of the UPS. Both units claim the same load capacity and 
> >> run-time -- so, likely have the same "reserve energy capacity". 
> >> 
> >> Mine (the lead acid unit) has a 350WHr battery pack (48V @ 7.2AHr) 
> >> so I would assume the lithium variant is comparable. 
> > 
> > My Li brick is 300WHr new (perhaps 250WHr used). 12V @ 27AHr
> So, a bit smaller than what's in the UPS (if we assume similar 
> efficiencies for the lead acid and lithium inverters)

But for less than $28.  How much is your UPS?

> >> Regardless, they serve different functions. Does your starter 
> >> provide a 120V 60Hz waveform that you can use to power a household 
> >> appliance? <grin> 
> > 
> > With an inverter, I can power a labtop for at least an hour, or 32 of them for a day.
> Yeah, and with 4 wheels and a lightweight chassis, I could ride around 
> the block! :> 
> 
> Gotta wonder why they aren't buying inverters and "battery jumpstarters" 
> to power their data centers, eh?

It's essentially the same inside, just package better for data centers.

On 10/22/2022 4:31 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:28:03 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/22/2022 4:20 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>>>> Yes, the Li power brick is essentially a built-in automatic jump starter.
>>>>> It's around $28 including shipping, but with more capacity than the $2899
>>>>> UPS.
>>>> Are you sure about that? E.g., I doubt the battery has MUCH effect on
>>>> the efficiency of the UPS. Both units claim the same load capacity and
>>>> run-time -- so, likely have the same "reserve energy capacity".
>>>>
>>>> Mine (the lead acid unit) has a 350WHr battery pack (48V @ 7.2AHr)
>>>> so I would assume the lithium variant is comparable.
>>>
>>> My Li brick is 300WHr new (perhaps 250WHr used). 12V @ 27AHr
>> So, a bit smaller than what's in the UPS (if we assume similar
>> efficiencies for the lead acid and lithium inverters)
> 
> But for less than $28.  How much is your UPS?

But you've only replaced the BATTERY in my UPS.  Do you have a network
connection that lets me control your device?  And, provide status reports
as to the size of the load, battery state, etc. periodically as well as
via a front panel display?

Is it rack mountable?  Does it carry any sort of warranty and
protections against damaging the equipment it powers?  UL approved?
etc.

[You'll note -- from previous post -- that my UPSs were $5/each]

You're addressing a different problem.

>>>> Regardless, they serve different functions. Does your starter
>>>> provide a 120V 60Hz waveform that you can use to power a household
>>>> appliance? <grin>
>>>
>>> With an inverter, I can power a labtop for at least an hour, or 32 of them for a day.
>> Yeah, and with 4 wheels and a lightweight chassis, I could ride around
>> the block! :>
>>
>> Gotta wonder why they aren't buying inverters and "battery jumpstarters"
>> to power their data centers, eh?
> 
> It's essentially the same inside, just package better for data centers.

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:06:33 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/22/2022 12:52 AM, John Walliker wrote: 
> > Not in mine. It uses lithium cells, is easy to hold in one hand and has started 
> > a variety of large engines including diesel vans and a Ferrari FF. One of the nice things 
> > about Li cells is that the starter pack can sit on the shelf for a year without any 
> > attention and then "just work". (I do leave it slightly discharged to help preserve 
> > battery life.) It was very reasonably priced about 3 years ago, mostly because 
> > I bought it on an Amazon "flash" sale. I had been browsing for such things but 
> > considered all the good ones to be too expensive. Then an offer of a 40% discount, 
> > valid for 1 hour, popped up and I took it.
> But is *it* really starting the car *or* simply quickly replenishing 
> (topping off) the charge in the existing lead acid battery? I.e., 
> converting "unusable" coulombs to useful ones? 
> 
> Most of the units I've seen have ~16AWG leads -- hardly enough to 
> carry the current required to turn over the engine. 
> 
> Said another way, if the lead-acid battery was REMOVED from the car, 
> would you expect to be able to turn it over?

The current is not limited by the gauge of the wire, as long as it is short.  A few inches of 16 gauge wire is not going to impact the voltage seen by the starter motor (4 mOhm per foot).  At least, it will be on par with the internal resistance of the car battery, especially when it starts to get weak. 

-- 

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 12:45:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:06:33 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: 
> > On 10/22/2022 12:52 AM, John Walliker wrote: 
> > > Not in mine. It uses lithium cells, is easy to hold in one hand and has started 
> > > a variety of large engines including diesel vans and a Ferrari FF. One of the nice things 
> > > about Li cells is that the starter pack can sit on the shelf for a year without any 
> > > attention and then "just work". (I do leave it slightly discharged to help preserve 
> > > battery life.) It was very reasonably priced about 3 years ago, mostly because 
> > > I bought it on an Amazon "flash" sale. I had been browsing for such things but 
> > > considered all the good ones to be too expensive. Then an offer of a 40% discount, 
> > > valid for 1 hour, popped up and I took it. 
> > But is *it* really starting the car *or* simply quickly replenishing 
> > (topping off) the charge in the existing lead acid battery? I.e., 
> > converting "unusable" coulombs to useful ones? 
> > 
> > Most of the units I've seen have ~16AWG leads -- hardly enough to 
> > carry the current required to turn over the engine. 
> > 
> > Said another way, if the lead-acid battery was REMOVED from the car, 
> > would you expect to be able to turn it over?
> The current is not limited by the gauge of the wire, as long as it is short. A few inches of 16 gauge wire is not going to impact the voltage seen by the starter motor (4 mOhm per foot). At least, it will be on par with the internal resistance of the car battery, especially when it starts to get weak. 

Yes, i am keeping the LA to handle the current surge, even if it's not holding much charges.  The Li brick is connected with 5P #22 and is rated for 30A.

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 3:33:22 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 12:45:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:06:33 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: 
> > > On 10/22/2022 12:52 AM, John Walliker wrote: 
> > > > Not in mine. It uses lithium cells, is easy to hold in one hand and has started 
> > > > a variety of large engines including diesel vans and a Ferrari FF. One of the nice things 
> > > > about Li cells is that the starter pack can sit on the shelf for a year without any 
> > > > attention and then "just work". (I do leave it slightly discharged to help preserve 
> > > > battery life.) It was very reasonably priced about 3 years ago, mostly because 
> > > > I bought it on an Amazon "flash" sale. I had been browsing for such things but 
> > > > considered all the good ones to be too expensive. Then an offer of a 40% discount, 
> > > > valid for 1 hour, popped up and I took it. 
> > > But is *it* really starting the car *or* simply quickly replenishing 
> > > (topping off) the charge in the existing lead acid battery? I.e., 
> > > converting "unusable" coulombs to useful ones? 
> > > 
> > > Most of the units I've seen have ~16AWG leads -- hardly enough to 
> > > carry the current required to turn over the engine. 
> > > 
> > > Said another way, if the lead-acid battery was REMOVED from the car, 
> > > would you expect to be able to turn it over? 
> > The current is not limited by the gauge of the wire, as long as it is short. A few inches of 16 gauge wire is not going to impact the voltage seen by the starter motor (4 mOhm per foot). At least, it will be on par with the internal resistance of the car battery, especially when it starts to get weak.
> Yes, i am keeping the LA to handle the current surge, even if it's not holding much charges. The Li brick is connected with 5P #22 and is rated for 30A.

This paper gives an unbiased comparison of different battery chemistries used in UPS applications:
https://www.batterypoweronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Lead-acid-white-paper.pdf

On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 3:33:22 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote: 
> > On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 12:45:42 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: 
> > > On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:06:33 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: 
> > > > On 10/22/2022 12:52 AM, John Walliker wrote: 
> > > > > Not in mine. It uses lithium cells, is easy to hold in one hand and has started 
> > > > > a variety of large engines including diesel vans and a Ferrari FF. One of the nice things 
> > > > > about Li cells is that the starter pack can sit on the shelf for a year without any 
> > > > > attention and then "just work". (I do leave it slightly discharged to help preserve 
> > > > > battery life.) It was very reasonably priced about 3 years ago, mostly because 
> > > > > I bought it on an Amazon "flash" sale. I had been browsing for such things but 
> > > > > considered all the good ones to be too expensive. Then an offer of a 40% discount, 
> > > > > valid for 1 hour, popped up and I took it. 
> > > > But is *it* really starting the car *or* simply quickly replenishing 
> > > > (topping off) the charge in the existing lead acid battery? I.e., 
> > > > converting "unusable" coulombs to useful ones? 
> > > > 
> > > > Most of the units I've seen have ~16AWG leads -- hardly enough to 
> > > > carry the current required to turn over the engine. 
> > > > 
> > > > Said another way, if the lead-acid battery was REMOVED from the car, 
> > > > would you expect to be able to turn it over? 
> > > The current is not limited by the gauge of the wire, as long as it is short. A few inches of 16 gauge wire is not going to impact the voltage seen by the starter motor (4 mOhm per foot). At least, it will be on par with the internal resistance of the car battery, especially when it starts to get weak. 
> > Yes, i am keeping the LA to handle the current surge, even if it's not holding much charges. The Li brick is connected with 5P #22 and is rated for 30A.
> This paper gives an unbiased comparison of different battery chemistries used in UPS applications: 
> https://www.batterypoweronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Lead-acid-white-paper.pdf

To summarize:
1. Most consumer batteries are sealed (LA or Li).  So, can ignore Flood LA.
2. Li has 3x energy density (weight and size advantages).
3. Limited cycles for Li.
4. Self discharge is less for Li vs. LA.

For EV:
1. Li is good for main storage (400V).
2. Not so good for stop and go low voltage system (12V).
3. Ideal situation is using both for 12V.