On 4/8/2022 2:25 AM, Martin Brown wrote:> BTW any suggestions which journal to publish new numerical algorithms in?I was thinking about that, last night, and realized there might be some information to gain as to "where" by examining the sorts of publications I typically consult for *other* "application domains" (that aren't as esoteric as yours). [I've never really paid attention to the source(s) of these documents as I'm really only interested in their content and just "accumulated" them from <wherever>] E.g., I've reviewed lots of simulations of EV battery performance that might shed insight on where folks interested in that sort of thing go to find it. (I doubt treatises on prosthetic limbs would shed much light! Or, heuristics for HVAC control, etc.) Most typically *not* "EV forums" (or HVAC forums) but, rather, scholastic undertakings which, I assume, is more in line with your audience. Or, are you looking to target something *specific* (like the SETI crowd)?
Battery problems
Started by ●April 5, 2022
Reply by ●April 9, 20222022-04-09
Reply by ●April 9, 20222022-04-09
On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown > > > > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > > > >> Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery > > > > >> fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to > > > > >> abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather, > > > > >> originates in manufacturing (?) > > > > > > > > > >I'm not sure that there is one single cause. > > > > Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now. > > > > > > > > > >Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically > > > > >high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail > > > > >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and > > > > >peak currents involved. > > > > Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical > > > > exchanges every day. > > > > > > > > > >> Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects, > > > > >> assembly faults, etc.? > > > > > > > > > >A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to > > > > >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by > > > > >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures. > > > > > > > > > >I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the > > > > >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now). > > > > I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side > > > > of the road. In a junkyard maybe. > > > https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway > > > > > > https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/ > > > > > > https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/ > > > > > > https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/ > > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/ > > > > > > And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of... > > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/ > > > > > > Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature. > > > > > > I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline. > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying. > > -- > SNIPPERMAN, SydneyAnother IDIOTIC comment by SNIPPERMAN - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot. Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.
Reply by ●April 9, 20222022-04-09
On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown > > > > > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > > > > >> Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery > > > > > >> fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to > > > > > >> abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather, > > > > > >> originates in manufacturing (?) > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm not sure that there is one single cause. > > > > > Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now. > > > > > > > > > > > >Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically > > > > > >high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail > > > > > >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and > > > > > >peak currents involved. > > > > > Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical > > > > > exchanges every day. > > > > > > > > > > > >> Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects, > > > > > >> assembly faults, etc.? > > > > > > > > > > > >A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to > > > > > >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by > > > > > >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures. > > > > > > > > > > > >I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the > > > > > >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now). > > > > > I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side > > > > > of the road. In a junkyard maybe. > > > > https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway > > > > > > > > https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/ > > > > > > > > https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/ > > > > > > > > https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/ > > > > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/ > > > > > > > > And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of... > > > > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/ > > > > > > > > Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature. > > > > > > > > I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline. > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > > > There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying. > > Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot.Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.> Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep on self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat. Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done, and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible. A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 12, 20222022-04-12
On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown > > > > > > <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > > > > > >> Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery > > > > > > >> fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to > > > > > > >> abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather, > > > > > > >> originates in manufacturing (?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm not sure that there is one single cause. > > > > > > Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically > > > > > > >high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail > > > > > > >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and > > > > > > >peak currents involved. > > > > > > Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical > > > > > > exchanges every day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects, > > > > > > >> assembly faults, etc.? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to > > > > > > >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by > > > > > > >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the > > > > > > >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now). > > > > > > I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side > > > > > > of the road. In a junkyard maybe. > > > > > https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway > > > > > > > > > > https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/ > > > > > > > > > > https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/ > > > > > > > > > > https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/ > > > > > > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/ > > > > > > > > > > And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of... > > > > > > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/ > > > > > > > > > > Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature. > > > > > > > > > > I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline. > > > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > > > > > There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying. > > > > Another IDIOTIC comment by SNIPPERMAN - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot. > > Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago FireYou prove my point, SNIPPERMAN.> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire > > are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, SNIPPERMAN?> > Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction. > The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep on self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat.You obviously know NOTHING about battery fires - they CAN'T be kept cool because they are generating their own oxygen. ONLY the surrounding areas can be kept cool to prevent thermal runaway of adjacent batteries.> > Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done, and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible.Good luck with that, SNIPPERMAN. Perhaps you are clairvoyant - most firefighters AREN'T!> > A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred.Note to the uninformed: gas fires can be stopped by cutting off their source of oxygen; lithium battery fires generate their OWN OXYGEN, fool.> > -- > SNIPPERMAN, Sydney
Reply by ●April 12, 20222022-04-12
On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:<snip>> > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > > > > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > > > > > > > There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying. > > > > > > Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot. > > > > Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire > > > > are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.> You prove my point, Sloman.One has to wonder what point Flyguy thought that he had made. He certainly hasn't posted a link to any entire parking lot full of EVs catching on fire.> And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, Sloman?Or recent fires in London? The point is that it used to be real risk and we've worked out how to deal with it. Flyguy seems to think that if he can imagine a situation where the risk hasn't been dealt with, there's no possible way of avoiding the disaster he has managed to imagine.> > > Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction. > > > > The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep on self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat. > > You obviously know NOTHING about battery fires - they CAN'T be kept cool because they are generating their own oxygen. ONLY the surrounding areas can be kept cool to prevent thermal runaway of adjacent batteries.If you take the heat away they don't get as hot. Oxygen doesn't come into it. You know nothing about thermal management.> > Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done, and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible. > > Good luck with that, Sloman. Perhaps you are clairvoyant - most firefighters AREN'T!Any sensible battery management system has to have a least one temperature sensor in the middle of the battery - I'd expect to see at least two, with a second one on the surface of the battery. The temperature is going to be monitored by micropower processor, and if it registers a high internal temperature is can sound an alarm, and put in a mobile phone call to the fire service. The battery is big enough to keep the processor running 24/7. Not a lot of clairvoyance involved there, but you do need to know a bit about modern electronics, which Flyguy doesn't, even though he is posting to the group sci.electronics.design.> > A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred. > > Note to the uninformed: gas fires can be stopped by cutting off their source of oxygen; lithium battery fires generate their OWN OXYGEN, fool.Cutting off the oxygen source for number of cars parked in a parking garage isn't a well-known fire-fighting technique. Air is ubiquitous. Lithium battery fires don't generate any oxygen. The oxidiser is built into the battery, and the problem comes when the battery decides to start self-discharging fast enough to get hot. This is detectable long before it gets noticeable or troublesome, but Flyguy doesn't know enough about batteries to appreciate this. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●April 14, 20222022-04-14
On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > <snip> > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > > > > > > > > > There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying. > > > > > > > > Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot. > > > > > > Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire > > > > > > are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination. > > You prove my point, Sloman. > > One has to wonder what point Flyguy thought that he had made. He certainly hasn't posted a link to any entire parking lot full of EVs catching on fire. > > > And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, Sloman? > > Or recent fires in London? The point is that it used to be real risk and we've worked out how to deal with it. Flyguy seems to think that if he can imagine a situation where the risk hasn't been dealt with, there's no possible way of avoiding the disaster he has managed to imagine.Translation: NONE!> > > > Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction. > > > > > > The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep on self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat. > > > > You obviously know NOTHING about battery fires - they CAN'T be kept cool because they are generating their own oxygen. ONLY the surrounding areas can be kept cool to prevent thermal runaway of adjacent batteries. > If you take the heat away they don't get as hot. Oxygen doesn't come into it. You know nothing about thermal management.Lithium batteries generate FAR MORE heat than you can take away. Do the math, SNIPPERMAN, a Tesla battery pack has 100 KWH - how much water do you need to take that heat away given that it is NOT submerged and you are spraying water on it?> > > Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done, and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible. > > > > Good luck with that, Sloman. Perhaps you are clairvoyant - most firefighters AREN'T! > > Any sensible battery management system has to have a least one temperature sensor in the middle of the battery - I'd expect to see at least two, with a second one on the surface of the battery. The temperature is going to be monitored by micropower processor, and if it registers a high internal temperature is can sound an alarm, and put in a mobile phone call to the fire service. The battery is big enough to keep the processor running 24/7.Sounds like an avalanche sensor that tells you about to be killed.> > Not a lot of clairvoyance involved there, but you do need to know a bit about modern electronics, which Flyguy doesn't, even though he is posting to the group sci.electronics.design.Coming from the IDIOT who advocates NUKING and FIREBOMBING his own country!> > > A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred. > > > > Note to the uninformed: gas fires can be stopped by cutting off their source of oxygen; lithium battery fires generate their OWN OXYGEN, fool. > Cutting off the oxygen source for number of cars parked in a parking garage isn't a well-known fire-fighting technique. Air is ubiquitous.LOL! It's called spraying them with water, IDIOT!> > Lithium battery fires don't generate any oxygen. The oxidiser is built into the battery, and the problem comes when the battery decides to start self-discharging fast enough to get hot. This is detectable long before it gets noticeable or troublesome, but Flyguy doesn't know enough about batteries to appreciate this.You are just a FUCKING IDIOT, SNIPPERMAN - lithium battery fires DO generate their own oxygen: LOOK IT UP!!!!> > -- > SNIPPERMAN, Sydney
Reply by ●April 15, 20222022-04-15
On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying. > > > > > > > > > > Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot. > > > > > > > > Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire > > > > > > > > are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination. > > > You prove my point, Sloman. > > > > One has to wonder what point Flyguy thought that he had made. He certainly hasn't posted a link to any entire parking lot full of EVs catching on fire. > > > > > And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, Sloman? > > > > Or recent fires in London? The point is that it used to be real risk and we've worked out how to deal with it. Flyguy seems to think that if he can imagine a situation where the risk hasn't been dealt with, there's no possible way of avoiding the disaster he has managed to imagine. > > Translation: NONE!Flyguy marks his evasion of any point being made by leaving out any reference to that point, a
Reply by ●April 15, 20222022-04-15
On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.<snip> I should have left it at that. Flyguy can't imagine that he's wrong and can't process any information that might let him realise that he could be wrong. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney>
Reply by ●April 15, 20222022-04-15
On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:54:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > <snip> > > I should have left it at that. Flyguy can't imagine that he's wrong and can't process any information that might let him realise that he could be wrong. > > -- > SNIPPERMAN, Sydney > >LOL! News flash: SNIPPERMAN is at a LOSS FOR WORDS!! You didn't address a SINGLE point that I made!!
Reply by ●April 16, 20222022-04-16
On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:24:56 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:54:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote: > > > > > > > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all. > > <snip> > > > > I should have left it at that. Flyguy can't imagine that he's wrong and can't process any information that might let him realise that he could be wrong. > > LOL! News flash: Sloman is at a LOSS FOR WORDS!! You didn't address a SINGLE point that I made!!The point was that you didn't make any kind of point. You told us what you could "imagine" but you are in terminal senile dementia and can imagine all kinds of improbable events. That isn't making any kind of point. It's just attempting to inject meaningless nonsense into the discussion - as you make a habit of doing. Tell your minders to up your medication - you are getting more agitated than is good for you (or us). -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
