Model train electronics

On 31/12/2021 17:00, Rick C wrote:
> On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 12:53:10 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:18:22 PM UTC-8, Tabby wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 30 December 2021 at 00:44:30 UTC, David Eather
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 17/12/2021 5:28 am, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their
>>>>> tracks get "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part
>>>>> due to nickel oxides deposited on the nickel silver rail
>>>>> surface from micro-arcing and microscopic pitting caused by
>>>>> the pick-up wheels.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces
>>>>> micro-arcing (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't
>>>>> affect traction too much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought
>>>>> inappropriate because it leaves the rail surface too dry
>>>>> after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits, I guess
>>>>> some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the
>>>>> source through some kind of snubbing or is that not really
>>>>> feasible wrt the process described.
>>>>> 
>>>> I cant see any reason why a snubber across the tracks (and
>>>> maybe one in the engine for good measure) wouldn't work a
>>>> treat.
>>> I can't see a track snubber helping.
>> Or you can skip power transmission thru the rails altogether and
>> have on-board batteries with radio control: https://www.s-cab.com/ 
>> You can have multiple locomotives operate simultaneously on the
>> same track.
> 
> That's what I was thinking.  It would be more like a real train
> having to stop at a filling point to get fuel.  The power connection
> could be wireless, or it could emulate a fuel hose and be plugged
> into the fuel tank on the engine.  Charge up the battery and it's
> ready for another trip.  I guess you need someplace to put the
> batteries.  Diesel trains don't have hopper cars anymore.  They don't
> even have cabooses.  The caboose is a red light fastened to the last
> car.  I think it monitors pressure in the air hose.

There are some electric ones with internal batteries to smooth out any 
dead spots on moveable tracks too.

> Is there space in the locomotive for a battery or two?  The engine
> control could be RF which could be very small, a single 8 pin MCU
> plus the RF receiver which can be a single transistor and a coil I
> believe.  They probably already have the remote RF and MCU unit.  I
> expect the only real issue will be where to put the battery.

Radio control is used on some smaller scale steam powered locos.

https://www.rctrains.co.uk

Models too small to actually pull a bogey with a man on it. It is a 
cottage industry in the UK making controllers for this narrow gauge. 
They are small scale live steam with a spirit burner boiler.

Live steam enthusiasts tend to have limited electronics skills.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

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Rick C wrote:
> That's what I was thinking.  It would be more like a real train having
> to stop at a filling point to get fuel.  The power connection could be
> wireless, or it could emulate a fuel hose and be plugged into the fuel
> tank on the engine.  Charge up the battery and it's ready for another

This works on large scales (like what's used in gardens), not so much on
the smaller ones that people tend to have inside though.  Mostly a case
of size than anything.

> trip.  I guess you need someplace to put the batteries.  Diesel trains
> don't have hopper cars anymore.  They don't even have cabooses.  The

I'm assuming by "hopper", you mean the tenders that steam locomotives
had, right?

> caboose is a red light fastened to the last car.  I think it monitors
> pressure in the air hose.  

Amongst other things related to location (e.g. "I passed the beacon
here past the switch, it's safe to stop now").


>
> Is there space in the locomotive for a battery or two?  The engine
> control could be RF which could be very small, a single 8 pin MCU plus
> the RF receiver which can be a single transistor and a coil I believe.
> They probably already have the remote RF and MCU unit.  I expect the
> only real issue will be where to put the battery.

Not really, no.  It's even "fun" finding space to cram the
microcontroller in (when using DCC).




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-- 
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O|

On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 9:04:27 AM UTC-5, Dan Purgert wrote:
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> Rick C wrote: 
> > That's what I was thinking. It would be more like a real train having 
> > to stop at a filling point to get fuel. The power connection could be 
> > wireless, or it could emulate a fuel hose and be plugged into the fuel 
> > tank on the engine. Charge up the battery and it's ready for another
> This works on large scales (like what's used in gardens), not so much on 
> the smaller ones that people tend to have inside though. Mostly a case 
> of size than anything. 

Not following.  What exactly is "this" that doesn't work?  What specifically won't work in small gauge trainsets? 


> > trip. I guess you need someplace to put the batteries. Diesel trains 
> > don't have hopper cars anymore. They don't even have cabooses. The
> I'm assuming by "hopper", you mean the tenders that steam locomotives 
> had, right?
> > caboose is a red light fastened to the last car. I think it monitors 
> > pressure in the air hose.
> Amongst other things related to location (e.g. "I passed the beacon 
> here past the switch, it's safe to stop now").

Maybe on newer equipment.  I worked for the railroad around 1980.  It wasn't much more than a light then.  


> > Is there space in the locomotive for a battery or two? The engine 
> > control could be RF which could be very small, a single 8 pin MCU plus 
> > the RF receiver which can be a single transistor and a coil I believe. 
> > They probably already have the remote RF and MCU unit. I expect the 
> > only real issue will be where to put the battery.
> Not really, no. It's even "fun" finding space to cram the 
> microcontroller in (when using DCC). 

Did you not see the web page someone posted a link to?  The complete (bulky) electronics and battery fit inside an HO gauge engine. 

-- 

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 9:04:27 AM UTC-5, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> Rick C wrote: 
>> > That's what I was thinking. It would be more like a real train having 
>> > to stop at a filling point to get fuel. The power connection could be 
>> > wireless, or it could emulate a fuel hose and be plugged into the fuel 
>> > tank on the engine. Charge up the battery and it's ready for another
>> This works on large scales (like what's used in gardens), not so much on 
>> the smaller ones that people tend to have inside though. Mostly a case 
>> of size than anything. 
>
> Not following.  What exactly is "this" that doesn't work?  What
> specifically won't work in small gauge trainsets? 

Sorry, I appear to have trashed half the thought there.   "Plugging them
in" works for bigger scales (where say a 2mm barrel jack wouldn't be too
big.  The small stuff people use indoors would be a bit too fine for
repeated use like that. 

>>> [...]
>> > caboose is a red light fastened to the last car. I think it monitors 
>> > pressure in the air hose.
>> Amongst other things related to location (e.g. "I passed the beacon 
>> here past the switch, it's safe to stop now").
>
> Maybe on newer equipment.  I worked for the railroad around 1980.  It
> wasn't much more than a light then. 

Yeah, Back in the 80s it was the light and the air pressure.  Now it has
the telemetry stuff -- though I'm not sure "when" that was introduced. 

>
>
>> > Is there space in the locomotive for a battery or two? The engine 
>> > control could be RF which could be very small, a single 8 pin MCU plus 
>> > the RF receiver which can be a single transistor and a coil I believe. 
>> > They probably already have the remote RF and MCU unit. I expect the 
>> > only real issue will be where to put the battery.
>> Not really, no. It's even "fun" finding space to cram the 
>> microcontroller in (when using DCC). 
>
> Did you not see the web page someone posted a link to?  The complete
> (bulky) electronics and battery fit inside an HO gauge engine. 

No, I must've missed that post.  I'll have to dig back in the thread.  I
have seen people do that in HO steam locomotives (in the generally empty
tender), or in "dummy" diesel locomotives though.  

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-- 
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
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|O|O|O|

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Dan Purgert wrote:
> Rick C wrote:
>> Did you not see the web page someone posted a link to?  The complete
>> (bulky) electronics and battery fit inside an HO gauge engine. 
>
> No, I must've missed that post.  I'll have to dig back in the thread.  I
> have seen people do that in HO steam locomotives (in the generally empty
> tender), or in "dummy" diesel locomotives though.  

Think I found it -- for 's-cab.com' ?  That pic at the very bottom looks
like they've pulled out all of the weights (if there were any in the
body to begin with - given the "toy" couplers in the picture, it
might've been a budget model that only had a couple of ounces of iron in
the fuel tank to begin with).

My experience in HO scale diesel locomotives are not very expansive -- I
only have a couple (and the "expensive" option at that) wherein they
have extra weights right over the wheel / gear towers -- roughly
equating to 1/2 of that circuit board not fitting at all 

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On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 11:45:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Purgert wrote:
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> 
> Rick C wrote: 
> > On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 9:04:27 AM UTC-5, Dan Purgert wrote: 
> >> Rick C wrote: 
> >> > That's what I was thinking. It would be more like a real train having 
> >> > to stop at a filling point to get fuel. The power connection could be 
> >> > wireless, or it could emulate a fuel hose and be plugged into the fuel 
> >> > tank on the engine. Charge up the battery and it's ready for another 
> >> This works on large scales (like what's used in gardens), not so much on 
> >> the smaller ones that people tend to have inside though. Mostly a case 
> >> of size than anything. 
> > 
> > Not following. What exactly is "this" that doesn't work? What 
> > specifically won't work in small gauge trainsets?
> Sorry, I appear to have trashed half the thought there. "Plugging them 
> in" works for bigger scales (where say a 2mm barrel jack wouldn't be too 
> big. The small stuff people use indoors would be a bit too fine for 
> repeated use like that. 

I don't  know why a 1/8 inch (3 mm) "phone" jack is widely used in earphone and mic apps in laptops, and phones.  That's not a market where they are babied.  Here's a link to many sizes of connectors. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector


> >> > caboose is a red light fastened to the last car. I think it monitors 
> >> > pressure in the air hose. 
> >> Amongst other things related to location (e.g. "I passed the beacon 
> >> here past the switch, it's safe to stop now"). 
> > 
> > Maybe on newer equipment. I worked for the railroad around 1980. It 
> > wasn't much more than a light then.
> Yeah, Back in the 80s it was the light and the air pressure. Now it has 
> the telemetry stuff -- though I'm not sure "when" that was introduced.
> > 
> > 
> >> > Is there space in the locomotive for a battery or two? The engine 
> >> > control could be RF which could be very small, a single 8 pin MCU plus 
> >> > the RF receiver which can be a single transistor and a coil I believe. 
> >> > They probably already have the remote RF and MCU unit. I expect the 
> >> > only real issue will be where to put the battery. 
> >> Not really, no. It's even "fun" finding space to cram the 
> >> microcontroller in (when using DCC). 
> > 
> > Did you not see the web page someone posted a link to? The complete 
> > (bulky) electronics and battery fit inside an HO gauge engine.
> No, I must've missed that post. I'll have to dig back in the thread. I 
> have seen people do that in HO steam locomotives (in the generally empty 
> tender), or in "dummy" diesel locomotives though. 

-- 

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> Hash: SHA512
> Dan Purgert wrote: 
> > Rick C wrote: 
> >> Did you not see the web page someone posted a link to? The complete 
> >> (bulky) electronics and battery fit inside an HO gauge engine. 
> > 
> > No, I must've missed that post. I'll have to dig back in the thread. I 
> > have seen people do that in HO steam locomotives (in the generally empty 
> > tender), or in "dummy" diesel locomotives though.
> Think I found it -- for 's-cab.com' ? That pic at the very bottom looks 
> like they've pulled out all of the weights (if there were any in the 
> body to begin with - given the "toy" couplers in the picture, it 
> might've been a budget model that only had a couple of ounces of iron in 
> the fuel tank to begin with). 
> 
> My experience in HO scale diesel locomotives are not very expansive -- I 
> only have a couple (and the "expensive" option at that) wherein they 
> have extra weights right over the wheel / gear towers -- roughly 
> equating to 1/2 of that circuit board not fitting at all 

The circuit board(s) can be made much smaller.  They use multiple boards to reduce the design work, but an MCU can be used to consolidate some of the functions making the electronics much smaller. 

-- 

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 

On Monday, 3 January 2022 at 18:21:06 UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
...
> > My experience in HO scale diesel locomotives are not very expansive -- I 
> > only have a couple (and the "expensive" option at that) wherein they 
> > have extra weights right over the wheel / gear towers -- roughly 
> > equating to 1/2 of that circuit board not fitting at all
> The circuit board(s) can be made much smaller. They use multiple boards to reduce the design work, but an MCU can be used to consolidate some of the functions making the electronics much smaller. 
...

The receivers I linked to in a previous post are small (~1cm sq). They can be fitted even into N-gauge (9mm track gauge) and similar (009, HoN30...).

The MCU and a frequency synthesized receiver all fit into one device that needs very few external components.

https://www.digikey.sg/htmldatasheets/production/836363/0/0/1/cyrf6936.html 

The complete receiver:
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt_land_v5.html#dt_rx41d_v5

Here is a video showing it being installed including battery in an 009 locomotive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hodstXk9mmc

kw

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Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 11:45:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> Sorry, I appear to have trashed half the thought there. "Plugging them 
>> in" works for bigger scales (where say a 2mm barrel jack wouldn't be too 
>> big. The small stuff people use indoors would be a bit too fine for 
>> repeated use like that. 
>
> I don't  know why a 1/8 inch (3 mm) "phone" jack is widely used in
> earphone and mic apps in laptops, and phones.  That's not a market
> where they are babied.  Here's a link to many sizes of connectors.

The jacks themselves are quite robust; but the models themselves really
aren't - I mean, we're talking detail parts that are 0.010" (0.25mm) in
a lot of cases.


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-- 
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O|

On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 1:26:05 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 11:57:30 PM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote: 
> > On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 8:51:17 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
> > > On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 11:40:19 PM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 9:01:01 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote: 
> > > > > On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 12:53:10 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote: 
> > > > > > On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:18:22 PM UTC-8, Tabby wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Thursday, 30 December 2021 at 00:44:30 UTC, David Eather wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On 17/12/2021 5:28 am, bitrex wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > The foamers have come to the conclusion that a reason their tracks get 
> > > > > > > > > "dirty" and cause power drop-outs is in large part due to nickel oxides 
> > > > > > > > > deposited on the nickel silver rail surface from micro-arcing and 
> > > > > > > > > microscopic pitting caused by the pick-up wheels. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > So they look for a surface coating or cleaner that reduces micro-arcing 
> > > > > > > > > (if that really is the main reason) but doesn't affect traction too 
> > > > > > > > > much; anhydrous isopropyl is thought inappropriate because it leaves the 
> > > > > > > > > rail surface too dry after it evaporates, some swear by mineral spirits, 
> > > > > > > > > I guess some use a thin coating of automatic transmission fluid. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Is it possible to rather reduce the micro-arcing at the source through 
> > > > > > > > > some kind of snubbing or is that not really feasible wrt the process 
> > > > > > > > > described. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I cant see any reason why a snubber across the tracks (and maybe one in 
> > > > > > > > the engine for good measure) wouldn't work a treat. 
> > > > > > > I can't see a track snubber helping. 
> > > > > > Or you can skip power transmission thru the rails altogether and have on-board batteries with radio control: 
> > > > > > https://www.s-cab.com/ 
> > > > > > You can have multiple locomotives operate simultaneously on the same track. 
> > > > > That's what I was thinking. It would be more like a real train having to stop at a filling point to get fuel. The power connection could be wireless, or it could emulate a fuel hose and be plugged into the fuel tank on the engine. Charge up the battery and it's ready for another trip. I guess you need someplace to put the batteries. Diesel trains don't have hopper cars anymore. They don't even have cabooses. The caboose is a red light fastened to the last car. I think it monitors pressure in the air hose. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is there space in the locomotive for a battery or two? The engine control could be RF which could be very small, a single 8 pin MCU plus the RF receiver which can be a single transistor and a coil I believe. They probably already have the remote RF and MCU unit. I expect the only real issue will be where to put the battery. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Rick C. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
> > > > > +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 
> > > > The link provided details all of this. The batteries are rechargeable lithium's and recharging can be done on any electrified portion of the track. Control is by RF, again shown in the link. It is more expensive than the old way but eliminates a lot of problems. And if you are a serious hobbyist the cost is irrelevant. 
> > > The link is of a design using modules rather than an integrated design. But they manage to cram it into an HO gauge so I guess it's not all that large. It would seem they charge through the rails? I guess you can do that with a stationary unit and not have the problem with the tarnish impacting the connection. 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 
> > > Rick C. 
> > > 
> > > ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
> > > ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 
> > They are no different from your Tesla - it doesn't charge while you're driving, either.
> Your reading comprehension is pretty poor, eh? That is in no way responsive to what I was saying. 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick C. 
> 
> --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
> --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Mine is fine, but yours SUCKS! Go reread the material - it is all in there.