On 12/10/2021 18:23, John Larkin wrote:> On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:39:14 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader > <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > >> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable.Unless it was very dry and cool like in a cave then it seems just a bit too long to be credible. Kew seed bank stores at 15% humidity and deep freeze conditions. They reckon some legume seeds will be viable for about 600 years maybe longer under those conditions. There are a few exceptionally old seeds that have been dated and germinated. https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/seeds-for-life>> >> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for >> water? > > I think it works pretty well. Not 1%, but a good estimate of the age > of organics.It is pretty good provided that the sample is well isolated from its environment and not too old (and not too young either). We messed up the global C14 ratios pretty badly in the 1960's with too many atmospheric nuclear and H-bomb tests. It still hasn't really recovered to natural. https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/explanation_modern.php Oxford reckon that most of the time they can get within 0.3% or 30 years whichever is the larger with some ambiguities when the solution is not single valued. There was more than one date when the same C14 ratio was present in known ancient woodland core samples. https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/explanation.php If this is a factor then they return a range of possible dates that are consistent with their dC14 measurements. They can also use dN15 for an independent check. The crucial thing for all radio carbon and all other isotopic ratio dating methods is that the sample must not have been able to exchange material with its environment or all bets are off. -- Regards, Martin Brown
OT Aztec Cave Beans
Started by ●October 11, 2021
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:55:18 AM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote:> Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:39:16 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote: > >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon > >> > dated back 1500 years and were still viable. > >> > >> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for water? > > > > Not really. The rate at which C-14 gets into the atmosphere (from cosmic rates hitting N-14 and transmuting it into C-14) is a bit erratic, but we now know how to correct for that - and have done for quite a while, since about 1967. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating > that article just reinforces the nonsense that carbon dating is.Cydrome Leader doesn't seem to have had much of an education. Carbon-dating is a useful technique and has made archeology a lot easier. It is not spectacularly precise, and there are small systematic effects that have to be corrected for, but the proposition that C-14 forms in the atmosphere when a cosmic ray hits an N-14 nucleus, and decays steadily once it has been captured during photosynthesis and incorporated into wood or other plant products is useful and reliable. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●October 12, 20212021-10-12
On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 8:30:59 AM UTC+11, Martin Brown wrote:> On 12/10/2021 18:23, John Larkin wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:39:14 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader > > <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > > >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon > >>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. > Unless it was very dry and cool like in a cave then it seems just a bit > too long to be credible. Kew seed bank stores at 15% humidity and deep > freeze conditions. They reckon some legume seeds will be viable for > about 600 years maybe longer under those conditions. There are a few > exceptionally old seeds that have been dated and germinated. > > https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/seeds-for-life > >> > >> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for > >> water? > > > > I think it works pretty well. Not 1%, but a good estimate of the age > > of organics. > It is pretty good provided that the sample is well isolated from its > environment and not too old (and not too young either). We messed up the > global C14 ratios pretty badly in the 1960's with too many atmospheric > nuclear and H-bomb tests. It still hasn't really recovered to natural. > > https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/explanation_modern.phpThere also the global warming problem - a lot of the CO2 in the modern atmosphere has been produced by burning fossil carbon, which doesn't contain any C-14 at all. The modern atmosphere contains less C14 than it used to, and this is known as the Suess Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suess_effect Hans Suess found it when he was looking at making carbon dating more accurate around 1955.> Oxford reckon that most of the time they can get within 0.3% or 30 years > whichever is the larger with some ambiguities when the solution is not > single valued. There was more than one date when the same C14 ratio was > present in known ancient woodland core samples. > > https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/explanation.php > > If this is a factor then they return a range of possible dates that are > consistent with their dC14 measurements. They can also use dN15 for an > independent check. > > The crucial thing for all radio carbon and all other isotopic ratio > dating methods is that the sample must not have been able to exchange > material with its environment or all bets are off.Too true. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply by ●October 13, 20212021-10-13
On 10/11/2021 10:57 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:15:02 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. > > They were still viable because they're loaded with antinutrients. You can read about their deleterious health effects here: > https://openbiotechnologyjournal.com/VOLUME/13/PAGE/68/FULLTEXT/ > >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2s94y3nwl08vzwv/Aztec_Cave_Beans.jpg?raw=1 >> >> We found some fresh ones at a farmer's market and cooked up a batch. >> Mighty good, sort of like cranberry beans, which also originated in >> the Americas. >> >> What did Italians and Irish people eat before pasta, potatoes, >> tomatoes, coffee, chocolate, corn, peanuts, all sorts of stuff was >> imported? > > They survived just fine on grains, fruits, vegetables, seafood and domesticated animal meats.And Mexican food.
Reply by ●October 13, 20212021-10-13
On 10/11/2021 12:37 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 12:25:57 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 08:57:05 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:15:02 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >>>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. >>> >>> They were still viable because they're loaded with antinutrients. You can read about their deleterious health effects here: >>> https://openbiotechnologyjournal.com/VOLUME/13/PAGE/68/FULLTEXT/ >>> >>>> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2s94y3nwl08vzwv/Aztec_Cave_Beans.jpg?raw=1 >>>> >>>> We found some fresh ones at a farmer's market and cooked up a batch. >>>> Mighty good, sort of like cranberry beans, which also originated in >>>> the Americas. >>>> >>>> What did Italians and Irish people eat before pasta, potatoes, >>>> tomatoes, coffee, chocolate, corn, peanuts, all sorts of stuff was >>>> imported? >>> >>> They survived just fine on grains, fruits, vegetables, seafood and domesticated animal meats. >>> >> "Survived just fine" with a 35 year life span punctuated by occasional >> plagues and famines. Half their kids died young. > > Disease was a part of life back then. It was a big deal for a child to survive to teenage years. This was true even in this country up to early 20th century. The old country graveyards are full of children. Aside from the various causes of disease, they didn't know how to treat anything. Sickness that is easily treated and cured these days was a death sentence in the old days."Modern medicine" that regularly saved more lives than it took was generously invented circa 1830, and as a poor person in 1930 you weren't that much better off than 1930 BC.
Reply by ●October 13, 20212021-10-13
On 10/12/2021 1:55 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:> Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote: >> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:39:16 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote: >>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >>>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. >>> >>> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for water? >> >> Not really. The rate at which C-14 gets into the atmosphere (from cosmic rates hitting N-14 and transmuting it into C-14) is a bit erratic, but we now know how to correct for that - and have done for quite a while, since about 1967. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating > > that article just reinforces the nonsense that carbon dating is. >"The Nobel Prize for Chemistry is Nonsense" - Cydrome Leader, 2021
Reply by ●October 13, 20212021-10-13
On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:47:51 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:>On 10/11/2021 10:57 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote: >> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:15:02 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. >> >> They were still viable because they're loaded with antinutrients. You can read about their deleterious health effects here: >> https://openbiotechnologyjournal.com/VOLUME/13/PAGE/68/FULLTEXT/ >> >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2s94y3nwl08vzwv/Aztec_Cave_Beans.jpg?raw=1 >>> >>> We found some fresh ones at a farmer's market and cooked up a batch. >>> Mighty good, sort of like cranberry beans, which also originated in >>> the Americas. >>> >>> What did Italians and Irish people eat before pasta, potatoes, >>> tomatoes, coffee, chocolate, corn, peanuts, all sorts of stuff was >>> imported? >> >> They survived just fine on grains, fruits, vegetables, seafood and domesticated animal meats. > >And Mexican food.Cream-filled churros are health food. -- Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still; but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was always most valuable when he had lost it.
Reply by ●October 14, 20212021-10-14
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:55:18 AM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote: >> Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote: >> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:39:16 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote: >> >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >> >> > dated back 1500 years and were still viable. >> >> >> >> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for water? >> > >> > Not really. The rate at which C-14 gets into the atmosphere (from cosmic rates hitting N-14 and transmuting it into C-14) is a bit erratic, but we now know how to correct for that - and have done for quite a while, since about 1967. >> > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating >> that article just reinforces the nonsense that carbon dating is. > > Cydrome Leader doesn't seem to have had much of an education. > Carbon-dating is a useful technique and has made archeology a lot > easier. It is not spectacularly precise, and there are small systematicNobody can even agree on how prcise it is. It's flavor of the week nonsense. The wiki page had some pretty amazing stuff like 3000BC +/- 12 years or some other randon number nonsense. On paper it looks good, in practice it's pure nonsense where all the numbers constantly change.
Reply by ●October 14, 20212021-10-14
bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:> On 10/12/2021 1:55 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote: >> Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote: >>> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 12:39:16 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote: >>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >>>>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. >>>> >>>> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for water? >>> >>> Not really. The rate at which C-14 gets into the atmosphere (from cosmic rates hitting N-14 and transmuting it into C-14) is a bit erratic, but we now know how to correct for that - and have done for quite a while, since about 1967. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating >> >> that article just reinforces the nonsense that carbon dating is. >> > > "The Nobel Prize for Chemistry is Nonsense" - Cydrome Leader, 2021the nobel prizes are nonsense. the peace prize in 2009? What a joke.
Reply by ●October 14, 20212021-10-14
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:> On 12/10/2021 18:23, John Larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:39:14 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader >> <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: >> >>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The possibly true legend is that these were found in a cave and carbon >>>> dated back 1500 years and were still viable. > > Unless it was very dry and cool like in a cave then it seems just a bit > too long to be credible. Kew seed bank stores at 15% humidity and deep > freeze conditions. They reckon some legume seeds will be viable for > about 600 years maybe longer under those conditions. There are a few > exceptionally old seeds that have been dated and germinated. > > https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/seeds-for-life >>> >>> Isn't carbon dating up there with lie detector tests and dowsing for >>> water? >> >> I think it works pretty well. Not 1%, but a good estimate of the age >> of organics. > > It is pretty good provided that the sample is well isolated from its > environment and not too old (and not too young either). We messed up the > global C14 ratios pretty badly in the 1960's with too many atmospheric > nuclear and H-bomb tests. It still hasn't really recovered to natural. > > https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/explanation_modern.php > > Oxford reckon that most of the time they can get within 0.3% or 30 years > whichever is the larger with some ambiguities when the solution is not > single valued. There was more than one date when the same C14 ratio was > present in known ancient woodland core samples. > > https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/explanation.php > > If this is a factor then they return a range of possible dates that are > consistent with their dC14 measurements. They can also use dN15 for an > independent check. > > The crucial thing for all radio carbon and all other isotopic ratio > dating methods is that the sample must not have been able to exchange > material with its environment or all bets are off.sad trombones playing. Like I said, carbon dating old stuff that's been who knows where is witchcraft, not science.
