This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1 Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
X-ray machine
Started by ●October 11, 2019
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On Friday, 11 October 2019 04:17:44 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes. > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1 > > Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had > something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I > wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.Maybe your next project is making one. I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really. NT
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:>On Friday, 11 October 2019 04:17:44 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1 >> >> Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had >> something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I >> wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one. > >Maybe your next project is making one. >I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really. > > >NTebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:> > ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they > need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part. >My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same xray source. -- When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > >>On Friday, 11 October 2019 04:17:44 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>> This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes. >>> >>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1 >>> >>> Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had >>> something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I >>> wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one. >> >>Maybe your next project is making one. >>I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really. >> >> >>NT > > ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they > need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.It depends on the image size. There are plenty of dental image sensors but they are rather small. I have an almost new Midmark Progeny machine with #1 sensor that is barely enough for 256-ball 1mm pitch BGA. It is a VETERINARY dental Xray that is exactly the same as regular one just having cats/dogs/horses shown on its control panel but that mere fact made it half-price of regular one. And it came with a used #1 sensor for that price. Image is immediate -- just push a button, hear a short noise of running HV supply and see picture on your computer monitor. Those sensors are insanely expensive on Ebay, usually cost almost as much as I paid for my entire complete machine with a sensor. However there are other alternatives e.g. Image Intensifier with regular camera attached. Those are bigger and let one overcome the main issue with dental Xray, quite a big focal spot size (my Midmark has 0.5mm focal spot that is actually smaller than 0.7mm for cheapest Xray option, Heliodent) that require moving the tube as far from the object as possible to get good resolution that makes it too weak at the object. The crown jewels are made by Hamamatsu (there are others but Hamamatsu stuff is probably the only one us mere mortals can buy; anything else is almost unheard of being sold used for a fraction of original price) with best MFX units having focal spots of 5 microns or so. Those are NOT pulsed tubes, they are CW and such a small focal spot size allows for very high magnification factors without losing resolution. Paired with decent size Image Intensifier such unit is simply fantastic and works like a microscope with high zoom factor (purely optical, not faked digital zoom)... --- ****************************************************************** * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:> On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote: > >> >> ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they >> need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part. >> > > My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite > expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same > xray source.I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography I don't think they have any electronics in them. -- Regards, Martin Brown
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:>On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote: >> On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they >>> need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part. >>> >> >> My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite >> expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same >> xray source. > >I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image >on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner. > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography > >I don't think they have any electronics in them.Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film" things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:17:36 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> >This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes. > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1 > >Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had >something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I >wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.Here's a PCB imaged with that parts counter machine. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kt99nhimkn1fjzn/T909a_Xray.tiff?raw=1 Interesting but not very useful.
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown > <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >>On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote: >>> On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they >>>> need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part. >>>> >>> >>> My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite >>> expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same >>> xray source. >> >>I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image >>on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner. >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography >> >>I don't think they have any electronics in them. > > Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film" > things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total."Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the image. Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the scanner after each shot. However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time. --- ****************************************************************** * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. * * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
Reply by ●October 11, 20192019-10-11
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 17:39:49 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown >> <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>> On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they >>>>> need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part. >>>>> >>>> >>>> My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite >>>> expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same >>>> xray source. >>> >>>I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image >>>on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner. >>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography >>> >>>I don't think they have any electronics in them. >> >> Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film" >> things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total. > >"Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an >exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the >image. > >Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that >you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure >without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that >scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you >wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture >right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at >different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your >board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the >scanner after each shot. > >However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default >setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way >better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source >with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live >video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some >details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results >immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any >at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time.I was looking at one of these https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1 but ebay and Amazon seldom describe what a gadget actually does. I wouldn't mind a little hassle to get an image of an IC or a small potted thing, but I would want resolution, to at least see wire bonds. Wet film developing would be too much hassle.
