X-ray machine

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 03:26:22 -0700 (PDT), jrwalliker@gmail.com wrote:

>On Sunday, 13 October 2019 09:09:26 UTC+1, John Miles, KE5FX  wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I can't see wanting more than 130 kVp. I wonder if that would be enough
>> to start damaging parts.  Not sure where the limits are.  
>
>A lot lower than 130kV.  I once used a lot of one-time programmable
>microcontrollers (Hitachi 63P01) and wondered whether I could erase
>them with X-rays.  I had access to a small microfocal X-ray machine,
>so I experimented.
>The result was disappointing.  I used the lowest energy I could, which
>was probably 30kV or 35kV.  I exposed a quartz window CMOS eprom for
>initial testing as this was more convenient - I could read back the
>contents at regular intervals during breaks in the exposure.  After
>something like 10 minutes exposure at a range of maybe 10cm from the
>target the eprom was erased.  I was able to reprogram it and it verified correctly, but only for a short time.  Unfortunately, it discharged
>within minutes, so there was permanent damage.  I didn't try things
>like annealing it which I only thought of much later.  In any case,
>if even short-term damage was being caused by an exposure only just
>sufficient to erase the eprom then this was clearly not going to be
>a sensible way of treating devices that would be used in a critical
>application.
>John
> 

Early eproms, before quartz windows, were intended to be erased by
xrays. Something like three times max.



-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

On Sunday, 13 October 2019 22:33:02 UTC+1, John Miles, KE5FX  wrote:
> On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 3:26:26 AM UTC-7, jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
> >I was able to reprogram it and it verified correctly, but only for a 
> > short time.  Unfortunately, it discharged within minutes, so there 
> > was permanent damage.  I didn't try things like annealing it which 
> > I only thought of much later. 
> 
> Interesting.  How would you anneal it?  Heat and/or high voltage?
> 
> I haven't tried erasing EPROMs with mine, but it does make sense that
> a 10-minute exposure to X rays in the PHz rangee would be comparable to 
> a much longer exposure (days?) to UV in the EHz range.  I've definitely 
> ruined EPROMs with excessive UV erase time.
> 
> I should try nuking a 24LC64 or something and see how that goes.

I was thinking that maybe baking it would help it recover.  It would be
interesting to see what results you get. I no longer have easy access to
X-ray sources.  My idea was that there might be a market for a cheap
X-ray eprom / microcontroller eraser because at the time plastic
packaged one-time programmable parts were much less expensive than
those with quartz windows.  As soon as I discovered that the part I
tested was damaged I gave up on the idea.
Later, eeprom and flash memory made the whole idea irrelevant.
However, it is still interesting to understand more about what
actually happens during irradiation.

John

On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 3:09:49 PM UTC-7, > 
> Early eproms, before quartz windows, were intended to be erased by
> xrays. Something like three times max.
> 

I guess the surprising part is that they weren't erased immediately in
JohnW's experiment.  They remained readable up until they didn't, at which 
point they were damaged.

Must be a matter of fewer photons per unit area.  Less probability of an
ionizing collision that drains a trapped charge, but more dramatic effects
when it happens.  

> a 10-minute exposure to X rays in the PHz rangee would be 
> comparable to a much longer exposure (days?) to UV in 
> the EHz range

I appear to have swapped my petas with my exas...

-- john, KE5FX

John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 7:29:37 PM UTC-7, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
>> I would've happily exchanged my L9181-02 for a working 150kV L8121-01 unit
>> in good condition, even without control box (as I already have one) but it
>> is almost absolutely unlikely to find one so I'm very happy to have their
>> second best :)
> 
> Yeah, I can't see wanting more than 130 kVp. I wonder if that would be enough
> to start damaging parts.  Not sure where the limits are.
> 
>> BTW, I don't know what could be the use of anything below 30kV (maybe some
>> soft tissues or something very transparent, low density?)
> 
> This machine was used for bone density studies on rodents at a big pharma
> company.  It came with documentation showing annual service by the Faxitron
> tech, right up to the point where they lost the password to the PC.  I don't
> think they used it much, certainly not after that.  Wish I knew how many
> hours were on the tube.
> 
> Obviously there were no HIPAA concerns, but they still didn't sell the PC
> with it. :(
> 
>> Most of BGA chips are completely opaque at such low energies; you
>> need something like at least 50kV to see through them.
> 
> Fortunately that's not the case.  Some favorites:
> 
> http://www.ke5fx.com/XEM3005_MX20_58098.175292_35kVp_15s.png
> (XEM3005 FPGA board with Spartan3E and Cypress FX2LP, 3x mag IIRC)
> 
> http://www.ke5fx.com/MCP23018_edge_37kVp_15s.png
> (MCP23018 I2C extender QFN, standing on edge)
> 
> http://www.ke5fx.com/LT8650S_MX20_58230.228355_37kVp_7s.png
> LT8650S buck regulator, 5x mag.  Package size is 6 mm x 4 mm.
*  Shows about 4 trace errors on the left...

> 
> http://www.ke5fx.com/BB_37KV_325uA_30s.jpg
> BeagleBone Black, 1x mag
> 
> http://www.ke5fx.com/BB_BGA_small.jpg
> Closeup of SoC on BeagleBone, 5x mag
> 
> Note that these required exposures up to 30 seconds.  If the machine were
> limited to typical dental exposure durations, it wouldn't be very useful.
> 
> -- john, KE5FX
> 

On 14.10.19 00:32, John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
> On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 3:26:26 AM UTC-7, jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I was able to reprogram it and it verified correctly, but only for a
>> short time.  Unfortunately, it discharged within minutes, so there
>> was permanent damage.  I didn't try things like annealing it which
>> I only thought of much later.
> 
> Interesting.  How would you anneal it?  Heat and/or high voltage?
> 
> I haven't tried erasing EPROMs with mine, but it does make sense that
> a 10-minute exposure to X rays in the PHz rangee would be comparable to
> a much longer exposure (days?) to UV in the EHz range.  I've definitely
> ruined EPROMs with excessive UV erase time.
> 
> I should try nuking a 24LC64 or something and see how that goes.
> 
> -- john, KE5FX


You may be up to a disappointment there.

I tried to erase plastic-cased EPROM 8052's years ago.
We started with different X-ray machines and ended up
with a cancer treatment accelerator, with no result.
The chips still checked with the original code and
worked fine.

-- 

-TV

On Sunday, 13 October 2019 23:28:30 UTC+1, John Miles, KE5FX  wrote:
> 
> I guess the surprising part is that they weren't erased immediately in
> JohnW's experiment.  They remained readable up until they didn't, at which 
> point they were damaged.

It wasn't quite like that.  The erasure was somewhat progressive, just
like with UV erasure.  For a while nothing changed, then more and more bits
changed state until they were all done.  What was surprising was the
behaviour when I tried to reprogram the device.  The programmer verified
each block just after programming.  These verifications were all fine.
Then, it did a final check of the whole device all in one go at the end.
It was this that failed, so the charge had leaked away from some of the
storage cells that were programmed early on in just a few minutes as the
programmer worked its way through the device.
The devices were definitely CMOS and were probably 27C32.
Most likely made by Hitachi as I would have wanted something comparable
with the Hitachi microcontrollers that I was using.
John

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 01:09:21 -0700 (PDT), "John Miles, KE5FX"
<jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 7:29:37 PM UTC-7, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
>> I would've happily exchanged my L9181-02 for a working 150kV L8121-01 unit
>> in good condition, even without control box (as I already have one) but it
>> is almost absolutely unlikely to find one so I'm very happy to have their
>> second best :)
>
>Yeah, I can't see wanting more than 130 kVp. I wonder if that would be enough
>to start damaging parts.  Not sure where the limits are.  
>
>> BTW, I don't know what could be the use of anything below 30kV (maybe some
>> soft tissues or something very transparent, low density?) 
>
>This machine was used for bone density studies on rodents at a big pharma
>company.  It came with documentation showing annual service by the Faxitron
>tech, right up to the point where they lost the password to the PC.  I don't 
>think they used it much, certainly not after that.  Wish I knew how many 
>hours were on the tube.
>
>Obviously there were no HIPAA concerns, but they still didn't sell the PC
>with it. :(
>
>> Most of BGA chips are completely opaque at such low energies; you
>> need something like at least 50kV to see through them.
>
>Fortunately that's not the case.  Some favorites:
>
>http://www.ke5fx.com/XEM3005_MX20_58098.175292_35kVp_15s.png
>(XEM3005 FPGA board with Spartan3E and Cypress FX2LP, 3x mag IIRC)
>
>http://www.ke5fx.com/MCP23018_edge_37kVp_15s.png
>(MCP23018 I2C extender QFN, standing on edge)
>
>http://www.ke5fx.com/LT8650S_MX20_58230.228355_37kVp_7s.png
>LT8650S buck regulator, 5x mag.  Package size is 6 mm x 4 mm.
>
>http://www.ke5fx.com/BB_37KV_325uA_30s.jpg
>BeagleBone Black, 1x mag
>
>http://www.ke5fx.com/BB_BGA_small.jpg
>Closeup of SoC on BeagleBone, 5x mag
>
>Note that these required exposures up to 30 seconds.  If the machine were
>limited to typical dental exposure durations, it wouldn't be very useful.
>
>-- john, KE5FX

Nice pix.

This is funny: we license a laser controller design to a big semi
equipment company, and they have it built by a contract manufacturer.
One RF NPN went EOL so they bought a reel, a lifetime supply, but had
that managed by an EOL consulting company. They x-rayed some
transistors

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oc2gktxmj25v0hm/Sag_Wires.jpg?raw=1

and rejected them all for "saggy wire bonds."




-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 01:09:21 -0700 (PDT), "John Miles, KE5FX"
> <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 7:29:37 PM UTC-7, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
>>> I would've happily exchanged my L9181-02 for a working 150kV L8121-01 unit
>>> in good condition, even without control box (as I already have one) but it
>>> is almost absolutely unlikely to find one so I'm very happy to have their
>>> second best :)
>>
>>Yeah, I can't see wanting more than 130 kVp. I wonder if that would be enough
>>to start damaging parts.  Not sure where the limits are.  
>>
>>> BTW, I don't know what could be the use of anything below 30kV (maybe some
>>> soft tissues or something very transparent, low density?) 
>>
>>This machine was used for bone density studies on rodents at a big pharma
>>company.  It came with documentation showing annual service by the Faxitron
>>tech, right up to the point where they lost the password to the PC.  I don't 
>>think they used it much, certainly not after that.  Wish I knew how many 
>>hours were on the tube.
>>
>>Obviously there were no HIPAA concerns, but they still didn't sell the PC
>>with it. :(
>>
>>> Most of BGA chips are completely opaque at such low energies; you
>>> need something like at least 50kV to see through them.
>>
>>Fortunately that's not the case.  Some favorites:
>>
>>http://www.ke5fx.com/XEM3005_MX20_58098.175292_35kVp_15s.png
>>(XEM3005 FPGA board with Spartan3E and Cypress FX2LP, 3x mag IIRC)
>>
>>http://www.ke5fx.com/MCP23018_edge_37kVp_15s.png
>>(MCP23018 I2C extender QFN, standing on edge)
>>
>>http://www.ke5fx.com/LT8650S_MX20_58230.228355_37kVp_7s.png
>>LT8650S buck regulator, 5x mag.  Package size is 6 mm x 4 mm.
>>
>>http://www.ke5fx.com/BB_37KV_325uA_30s.jpg
>>BeagleBone Black, 1x mag
>>
>>http://www.ke5fx.com/BB_BGA_small.jpg
>>Closeup of SoC on BeagleBone, 5x mag
>>
>>Note that these required exposures up to 30 seconds.  If the machine were
>>limited to typical dental exposure durations, it wouldn't be very useful.
>>
>>-- john, KE5FX
> 
> Nice pix.
> 
> This is funny: we license a laser controller design to a big semi
> equipment company, and they have it built by a contract manufacturer.
> One RF NPN went EOL so they bought a reel, a lifetime supply, but had
> that managed by an EOL consulting company. They x-rayed some
> transistors
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/oc2gktxmj25v0hm/Sag_Wires.jpg?raw=1
> 
> and rejected them all for "saggy wire bonds."

BTW, here is something that looks like a decent setup:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163883154672
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163883304966

However, that L7902 is built for a machine (i.e. it is not a general purpose
source) so there is no information about it on Hamamatsu website. It might
be worth asking their support about it but I don't know if they would be
willing to help with that one. It also requires an external controller and
it is not clear which one as there is no even sales brochure available.
Another unknown is that Thales Image Intensifier -- the Thales Group is a
French company deep into military/aerospace so you have to get an online
account with them just to ask questions and that is not something easy to
get -- you have to APPLY for account and they MIGHT give you one. I was not
able to get one.

Thales TH 9464 QX is listed on their site and their scarce datasheet says it
is 6" device with "Very high resolution" which is 70 lp/cm according to that
few data available as regular (?) one, non-QX supposedly has something like
48 lp/cm but that is not all that certain.

The best bet for Image Intensifier would be something Toshiba E5877J based
which is 4" device with actually high resolution (77 lp/cm full 4" and 110
lp/cm in 2X zoom mode that takes central 2") There is datasheet available
that is sufficient to make it work (it only requires 24VDC with a single
wire switching between normal (open) and zoom (shorted to ground) mode that
is very easy fo figure out. Those were also sold by North American Imaging
as AI5877JP. That is what I have.

Those big ones (9" and bigger) from different X-Ray medical machines might
be tempting but they all have much lower resolution, they are very big so
they have to be shipped Freight, and there is usually absolutely no
documentation available from anywhere so it is unknown how to hook them up.

---
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